it doesn’t matter about what happens to the majority...in sport you want to be the winning minority. No professional player plays the game who doesn’t dream of winning trophies, scoring winning goals in finals...no professional player. Wether you get there or not is another thing but you cannot ever get anywhere near the top without that ambition. That’s why the best players on the whole join the clubs that win things...they don’t all rush to join us or other teams that win **** all but are traditionally talked about as being teams that play entertaining football such as Swansea or Southampton etc. of course there is the possibility to have both but like I said...we brought in Jose’s pragmatism because for once we were prepared to for a few years risk the possibility of sacrificing swashbuckling football in order to learn how to win things...it’s not going to plan but it’s something I wanted to work because once again I believe winning things is right up there in sport.
Of course they do because you always have to be trying to win otherwise there is no point in playing Pro footballers want to be the best so they will buy into anything that gets them to the top. BUT most of us are not pros so we do this for fun. The football of Ramos or AVB or currently Jose is far from fun and a trophy does not compensate me for the boring football. It's the wrong road IMO. We should play decent football try to win every game and try to win every trophy but not at ANY price.
I think there was a hope from the outset that Jose would be a 'quick fix' who would come in and within 2-3 years win us a few major trophies (i.e. NOT just the Carabao), thereby completing the last piece in the puzzle of raising the club's profile which would (possibly) pave the way for ENIC to sell to a major investor and cash in. Every single step ENIC have taken in two decades has pointed to this. They've got most off-pitch decisions right, and most on-pitch decisions wrong. But the on-pitch decisions they got right (BMJ, Harry, Poch, promoting youth) were disproportionately impactful and also came at a time when clubs exponentially bigger than us were floundering (Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, United). So the gains of 3 brilliant managers offset the losses of 6 bad ones (soon to be 7). The priority was never winning trophies. One in 2 decades tells that story. It was about raising our commercial profile which ultimately in the modern era is only possible via the Euro route, which is why EL and then CL football became absolutely essential. The next steps were the new stadium and partnering with the NFL to transcend into a whole new sporting market and continent. I wouldn't be surprised if the long-term goal is to entice a mega-bucks NFL owner to buy the club. Well, I say 'long-term' but let's not forget - Joe Lewis turns 84 tomorrow. He isn't going to be around much longer, and is probably mapping out one last hurrah to feather the family nest. Problem is, thanks to Covid and Jose being crap, this hasn't gone to plan at all. If anything, we are further away from challenging for major trophies than at any point since 2016, and face the very real prospect of losing our two best players in the summer. The disparity between our off-pitch success and on-pitch woes is alarming. In footballing terms, we are almost identical to where we were under AVB - squad full of dross managed by a coach with no clue, overly reliant on a couple of quality players to do everything. If/when those players leave, we will be almost identical to where we were under Sherwood.
I can believe that but you’d think someone would have whispered into ENIC’s ears that the best way to get to that final stage of the master plan would be to build a top team, a league winning team. I reckon they would get more bang for their buck if they did that. Their philosophy of lacking minerals for chasing on field success has filtered through the clubs pores and now here we are, happy to just compete, we tried, that kind of level. not good enough
Interesting debate between Spurf and Spurlock. It's a debate raging across forums (fora?) beyond this one. Sorry Spurlock, but I agree with every point Spurf has made. Maybe it's an age thing. I've never demanded winning titles and 'trophies' but I've always hoped for them, but realism has told me that, now more than ever, it's unrealistic to expect to best clubs with bigger fanbases and massively bigger budgets. Within that reality, playing entertaining, exciting football and being other fan's second favourite team has made it all worthwhile. I want glory, knowing that in failure there will be an echo of glory, to coin a great man. I'm dismayed by the younger generation of Spurs fans, groomed on the Trumpian 'Apprentice' mentality that applies value ONLY to 'winners' and everyone else is a 'loser', and these young fans willingness to sacrifice all that tradition in a forlorn delusional belief that winning a cup or two will change the mentality so much that the club will become some sort of miraculous force, exempt from the usual financial impediments, and these natural limitations be banished for ever, thanks to Jose, if only we're prepared to pay the (heavy to me) price of enduring boring insipid, soulless, negative, unentertaining football. As Spurf said, winning is only possible to the tiny minority and, you may be surprised to learn, that there is, and always has been, a close correlation between winning and wage bill etc. I swear to god that if Leeds were playing tonight I would have switched over, and I felt dirty saying that. For the first time in my life I would desert the team I've supported for nearly half a century, but the football really is that bad. No amount of trophies could ever mitigate the **** that I'm currently choosing to endure.
Have you noticed? We are 5 points behind Hackney Wick Hammers. Time to wake up boys......or retire!!!!
For me, it’s really quite simple. Mourinho is past it, and has been for about 5 years. His record has got him this job with us, but we were too late to the party. Way too late. (See Man United). He’s now just an Allardyce/Perdew type with an exotic name. The players are bored and aren’t buying in. There’s fallings out behind the scenes and players being isolated. He’s lost the dressing room He’s realised his only style is ****ed without Kane. Mourinho has thrown the towel in himself. The weird interviews have commenced where he makes no sense. He wants a pay out. it’s inevitable what comes next.
I think you are confusing outcomes with plans. Before ENIC we were mid table. 30 years ago there was some chance of winning a cup from mid table which we occasionally did, but the advent of the CL essentially changed that. The choice now is very stark, get access to the CL money or be mediocre forever. The only sensible way of growing the club was to improve the league position. That can only be done by improving the team. A better team INCREASES the chance of winning trophies. Unfortunately there are only 4 trophies and the chance of winning one is less than one in ten for a team on the fringes of the top 4. And of course most of our progress came from a small number of managers....look at any club that is always true. Over the CL years only two clubs have managed to break in to the CL places for more than two years. Us and Man City. That shows that the football decisions have been right.
Straight forward question. Did you prefer ... 1. The Bloke in a Coat era? 2. The Ramos era? 3. The Jol era? 4. The Redknapp era? Or 5. The Pochettino era? For me it's the Jol era (just) cos he gave us back a team to be proud of. Then it was Pochettino in second followed by Redknapp. Football should be a pleasure to watch, a joy, something to keep you on the edge of your seat. Trophies, any trophies are great but the Graham 2/3 years were awful regardless of the trophy we won. If you are willing to put up with turgid football to win a cup this season fair enough mate...I don't think that my views should be shared by all spurs fans. But the chances created stats that I posted last night are a damning sign on how we play the (not so) beautiful game.
So by your reasoning what was the logic in hiring Jose - a manager who has never rebuilt a squad, never improved a team without an open cheque book, never left a positive legacy and never lasted more than 3 years in any one position? He was a short term gamble to win trophies and it hasn't paid off. The vastly more sensible option would have been to invest in the best manager we've had in 30 years, rather than hanging him out to dry when chronic lack of investment came back to bite.
Can you actually see us winning a trophy though? I can't see us beating City who are in formidable form despite missing 2 or 3 key players. I also can't see us getting past Everton next week, especially with a half-fit Kane leading the line. Our best shot is the Europa. At least teams on the continent haven't sussed us out and the slower pace of play might allow us to progress deep into that tournament.
Agreed. Levy clearly felt it was cheaper/worth the risk to hire Mourinho to get the trophy from Poch’s long term project, rather than investing in the squad and backing the manager. - and many fans thought we’d end up in a situation like this. I seem to remember quotes from Levy on the Amazon doc where he said he’s convinced Mourinho will bring success. I wonder what his next move will be? This couldn’t have backfired any more than it already has, and we’ve also had a pandemic during this time. I suppose I’ve answered my question, COVID will be the excuse. Regardless, we still need the investment in the playing staff (even more so) and we’re another year or so down the line. The “ENIC out” camp were very vocal during Poch’s reign, and I think it’s going to get a hell of a lot uglier as their opinions have been proven right.
We're not in any sort of position to debate winning trophies against attractive football. Currently, we're capable of neither with no prospect of that altering under the current manager. He's really got to go but that just points at further problems. I've zero faith in Daniel Levy to pick a successor and then to not piss him off. As much as appointing Mourinho was always a really bad idea, bringing in Bale and Bergwijn (neither of whom Mourinho wanted) was chucking fuel on the fire. Just as Poch clearly didn't want Lucas or Aurier. We desperately need to get Levy away from making managerial appointments (his record is dreadful) and get him working on sponsorships, NFL and the like. I'd love for us to sell to someone who is going to invest beyond the purchase price but how realistic is that right now? More realistic is that we get someone in who can make better footballing decisions above the manager. Until we do that, we're stuck in a dreadful Groundhog Day.
I completely agree. Sacking Pochettino was a bad decision. ENIC have made lots of mistakes, just a lot fewer than everyone else. But there was no underinvestment, chronic or otherwise. We bought nearly every player Pochettino wanted as far as I can see.
Didn't want Sissoko Didn't want Lucas Didn't want Aurier Wanted Grealish Wanted Dybala Wanted Fernandes Wanted Sessegnon a year earlier That's just off the top of my head.
You clearly do not like Levy or Jose but you should be careful what you wish for. At least with Levy we have a chairman who is a fan and has made decisions for what he perceived to be in the best interests of the club. I doubt there are many chairman who would have taken as much trouble with the training ground and stadium to make them as good as possible for fans and players. Sure he makes footballing mistakes, show me ONE club that has not. Football is not a science. What ENIC and Levy have done is to move Spurs into being a modern club where expectations are now as high as they have ever been, where the clubs facilities are second to none. Employing Jose was part of the process of doing just that and like his football or not (and I don't so I agree with you there) what his arrival has done is announce to the football world that Spurs are a contender. Whatever happens with Jose other top managers will now look at the chance to join Spurs where before they would have seen us as second tier. Van Gall and his ilk will now think twice about turning Spurs down. Who knows what the successors to ENIC will be like. There are plenty of Americans just waiting to asset strip PL teams, it's easy meat for these sharks. Get one of them and you will find out what it's really like to have your team taken away from you.
Yep I have confused your attacks on Jose with attacks on Levy. I'll leave my post in case you are thinking of attacking Levy I was on a role there too
