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Off Topic Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Southampton' started by ChilcoSaint, Feb 23, 2016.

  1. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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    Labour are finished, I very sadly believe. In England they have mistakenly bet on the Red Wall seats coming back to the fold now they are a Brexit-supporting party. That gives all of us nowhere to turn to once Brexit is proven to be a complete failure.

    But the main problem is Scotland. As things stand, the vast majority of Scottish voters favour both independence from the UK and an early return to the EU. In the Scottish Parliamentary elections in May, a campaign of tactical voting could see a combination of SNP and Green MSP’s holding practically all the seats, as these are the only parties favouring both independence and rejoining. With all guns blazing for Indyref2, and Labour firmly opposed to independence, a General Election, early or not, will see Labour most probably lose the only seat in Scotland they currently hold, let alone take the 30 or so they would need to get anywhere near a Westminster majority.

    And once those Scottish seats are gone for good, they signal the end of Labour’s last hope. Either they need to change their stance on Europe, to appeal to Scottish voters, or they’re done.

    Personally, the only party I would feel happy about supporting nationally are the Greens, but only electoral reform gives them any hope of getting a decent number of Westminster seats.
     
    #29321
  2. Shandy_top_89

    Shandy_top_89 Well-Known Member

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    The Indy question is why I think the only possible unionist move is for Labour to come to an arrangement with at least the Lib Dem’s prior to the next election, otherwise it’s coalition with the SNP and all that entails or more Conservatives.

    It is so clearly the only available first step forward out of this mess, yet neither are really showing any sign of interest, I really hope that changes.

    The SNP having a strong showing this year will strengthen their hand, but they can only achieve a legally binding referendum via Westminster so I think 2024 is the real battle for the future of the U.K, if they become kingmaker then the next referendum is on.

    Also as you say Labour need to drop the ego as a party and realise they can no longer win alone under FPTP, they need to back electoral reform and become open to working with other parties on the left and centre, if they don’t they are actively strengthening the Conservatives.
     
    #29322
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  3. San Tejón

    San Tejón Well-Known Member

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    NO BREXIT DEAL WITH NORWAY
    A boat responsible for catching a tenth of the fish in Britain’s fish-and-chip shops has been stuck in port in Hull, East Yorkshire, since December 5.
    This week the Kirkella should be on its way to Norwegian waters for the best fishing of the year, but it is trapped because the UK has no post-Brexit deal with Norway.

    upload_2021-1-18_11-41-40.jpeg
     
    #29323
  4. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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  5. SaintStu

    SaintStu Well-Known Member

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    Why our parties fear coalition governments is really the stumbling block. I agree Scottish independence will make it almost impossible for Labour to have a majority in the future and maybe that is why they oppose it. I find it ironic that the Scottish are so keen to leave one union to join another, the truth is the Scottish is tired of being governed largely by a Conservative Westminster which is so different from the majority of Scottish voters.
    SNP would hate the proportional representation too, it will reduce their say in Westminster.
    I agree that Labour will need to bite the bullet and campaign to re-join the EU if they want any hope of a meaningful coalition with Lib Dems/Greens - I just think they are waiting for the full costs of Brexit to fully dawn in the minds of those traditional Labour voters - whether it will do so is arguable.

    Here is the other problem - the demographic of the population has changed. A bit like the USA, it is the educated middle classes in urban areas that now vote Labour or Democrat. The disenfranchised working class are now voting for traditional conservative parties in the best case or in the worst more nationalistic parties/representatives. There are many reasons for this - some think central government is ignoring them or favoring others over them, others believe that governments are looking to globally and not enough locally. Change to new economic paradigms is not being managed very well for the less wealthy, they are being left to fend for themselves.
     
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  6. AberdeenSaint

    AberdeenSaint Well-Known Member

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    But we didn`t want to leave the other union in the first place.
     
    #29326
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  7. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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    I think this is the point many are missing. There is evidence that in 2014 and 2016 in Scotland, those voting respectively for independence and remaining weren’t necessarily the same people. That seems to have changed now, and because of the Labour Party’s complete betrayal of Remainers, independence is seen as the only way of rejoining. EU membership is perceived, probably correctly, as being a whole lot more beneficial to Scots than being ruled by a bunch of English nationalists who hate immigration.
     
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  8. AberdeenSaint

    AberdeenSaint Well-Known Member

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    I have limited sympathy, since the fishing community chose Brexit and thus opted for the incompetent regime we are lumbered with. The government doesn`t give a $hit about the fishing community, as demonstrated by Rees Mogg and his sneering `happy fish` comments.
     
    #29328
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  9. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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    I think you’re missing two important points. First, the Scottish Parliamentary system is based on PR, and it hasn’t done the SNP any harm at all. Second, they don’t want to be part of Westminster anyway.
     
    #29329
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  10. Shandy_top_89

    Shandy_top_89 Well-Known Member

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    I have sympathy with Scots being on the wrong side of Brexit events which has definitely swayed the independence polling since. But imo Scotland leaving the U.K. would be compounding the problems of Brexit rather than solving it, a hard border on GB with restrictions on freedom of movement and trade across the island wouldn’t be good for anyone, the SNP can’t guarantee they will get an independent Scotland back into the EU either and it would be stripping the preferred nationality and citizenship of a large proportion (even if a minority) of their population against their will for a second time, which they aren’t likely to take lying down.

    The best solution remains to get the whole of the U.K. back in the EU as soon as possible, I feel it is inevitable in the long run as under 40s in England are overwhelmingly liberal and pro European. Beyond that the U.K. does need significant reform including:

    England getting its own devolved parliament meaning Westminster only handles Union business (defence, home department, foreign affairs, central economy).

    A written, legally binding constitution.

    A shift towards a more representative electoral system for the Commons and pure PR for the Lords.

    A veto process for major constitutional changes e.g. Brexit, where at least 3/4 of the devolved parliaments need to consent.
     
    #29330
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
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  11. SaintStu

    SaintStu Well-Known Member

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    True - but to get the independence vote that they want they have to work with Westminster, because the Conservatives are not going to just allow it whatever the way they vote in Scotland.
    Not saying that Westminster are correct for doing this by the way.

    Personally I don't like leaving the EU and I don't like the break-up of the UK, we should be coming together, not breaking apart. Fundamentally we are all humans that feel/bleed the same, surely we can work together. Too many people just concerned with their own bank balances.

    As John Lennon said, "Imagine"
     
    #29331
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  12. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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    That’s right on all counts. But I have relatives living in Scotland and the younger ones especially have given up on the way the U.K. is run, and are completely on the side of an EU-based independent Scotland. It will happen in the next 5 or 10 years, I have no doubt, and I suppose in a strange way I want them to prove to the rest of us that we were wrong to leave the EU. Not that we will need Scotland to tell us that!
     
    #29332
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  13. San Tejón

    San Tejón Well-Known Member

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    I too have little sympathy for the fishermen, since so many voted for it, but I have less sympathy for a government that lied to get the result the fishermen voted for, and then didn’t have the foresight to sort a trade deal with Norway, over fishing rights.

    Maybe they thought Norway was in the EU? <whistle>
     
    #29333
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  14. San Tejón

    San Tejón Well-Known Member

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  15. StJabbo1

    StJabbo1 Well-Known Member

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    FB_IMG_1611045081578.jpg
    Shared from FB

    Please support our Rivers

    This is a truly important thing happening for UK rivers - a big push to end the "legal" discharge of sewage into our rivers. The private member's bill, will be read on Jan 22nd.
    Make some noise about your local river and wildlife it supports and write a
    letter to your MP. Please share this message and ask friends and family to write a letter themselves.

    If sharing info about the bill or your letter/artwork on social media please use the hashtag [#EndSewagePollution](https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/en...6kkKGnMKlQzYk69Cd5Kn36fMmgUi4NSI&__tn__=-UK-R) and tag one of the following for RTs & shares:

    [South East Rivers Trust](https://www.facebook.com/southeastr...6kkKGnMKlQzYk69Cd5Kn36fMmgUi4NSI&__tn__=-UK-R)

    [Surfers Against Sewage](https://www.facebook.com/groups/246...6kkKGnMKlQzYk69Cd5Kn36fMmgUi4NSI&__tn__=-UK-R)

    [Thames21](https://www.facebook.com/Thames21/?...6kkKGnMKlQzYk69Cd5Kn36fMmgUi4NSI&__tn__=-UK-R)

    [The Rivers Trust](https://www.facebook.com/theriverst...6kkKGnMKlQzYk69Cd5Kn36fMmgUi4NSI&__tn__=-UK-R)

    You can find out about sewage being discharged locally on this map here (it's not comprehensive but gives a good indication about what is happening so close to home): [https://experience.arcgis.com/.../e...ow_Spill_Duration_WaterCo_EDM_2019_5327:5922)

    You can read more about the bill here: [https://www.southeastriverstrust.or...triverstrust.org/an-end-to-sewage-in-rivers/)
    For assistance in contacting your MP about The Sewage (Inland Waters) Bill or to check whether they publicly support the bill see here: [https://www.sas.org.uk/EndSewagePol...s.org.uk/EndSewagePollution-SewageBillPlease) fight for our lovely River Lea and England's rivers, they are in a sorry state - and we have the tools to fix them.
     
    #29335
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  16. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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  17. Le Tissier's Laces

    Le Tissier's Laces Well-Known Member

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    The guy who runs Parler is married to a young, pneumatic Russian. It's always been a Russian controlled device - these things don't just pop up as fully formed platforms like that overnight.

    That's the incredible irony of it all - these berks think they're 'patriots' whilst Putin laughs into his borscht at them doing his work for him.
     
    #29337
  18. San Tejón

    San Tejón Well-Known Member

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  19. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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    Plus they have to give their social security numbers to sign up, which must be great for fundraising and malware purposes!
     
    #29339
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  20. San Tejón

    San Tejón Well-Known Member

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    Test and trace STILL paying massive £1000 per day fees to Deloitte, for consultants.
    £900,000.00 per day of tax payers money being paid to 900 consultants in a system that has been pretty much useless.

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...ipbzla1PIsJ2RDyxXgToqqFNBHXBVmMdd_81D7x0aUHVY

    Edit. To put that figure into context, locums in Southampton are paid £1000 per day, but they make a genuine difference to lives.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021

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