1. Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

Off Topic The "Discuss Anything Else" Thread

Discussion in 'Horse Racing' started by OddDog, Jun 23, 2013.

  1. Steveo

    Steveo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,190
    Likes Received:
    765
    only way gigs will ever return is if enough people take the vaccine
     
    #10461
  2. mallafets123

    mallafets123 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,571
    Likes Received:
    962
    Same here Joe, I wont be taking it either, though at 45 and fit and healthy probably dont need it anyways. I dont take anti malarials in Africa either as I dont like to put crap in my body if I can help it. People I speak to and have asked if they would get it has been about 50/50.
    I will watch and see what the side effects are in the years to come and if indeed it works.
     
    #10462
    Joe_z likes this.
  3. smokethedeadbadger

    smokethedeadbadger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    Messages:
    7,972
    Likes Received:
    4,169
    They aren't the only two options though are they? Support the vaccine or you're a conspiracy theory nut job. Even though i'd be way down the list i'd not be taking it. My parents at 67 and 69 respectively have no interest in taking it and they never miss a flu jab. As advanced and amazing as science can be they can not possibly know for certain in such a short space of time whether its safe and effective.
     
    #10463
    QuarterMoonII and Joe_z like this.
  4. smokethedeadbadger

    smokethedeadbadger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    Messages:
    7,972
    Likes Received:
    4,169
    I've just bought tickets for a gig in Manchester for next April. If the condition of me being able to go is i have to have the vaccine then i won't be going. That is unless between now and then there is a lot more known about the vaccine. I'm not in the absolutely no way will i ever take it camp but its far too soon right now so its not for me.
     
    #10464
  5. Joe_z

    Joe_z Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2016
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    411
    I do not view this as me becoming a conspiracy theory nut job.
    The valid points QM raised have been on my mind prior to his post and the fact is the doubt in my mind outweighs the confidence in the vaccine so like i said i will not be taking it.
     
    #10465
  6. Steveo

    Steveo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,190
    Likes Received:
    765
    Qantas are leading the way among airlines by saying that anyone not vaccinated will not be allowed to fly.
    Hopefully all airlines take this approach.
    Very sensible decision.

    I think anyone not vaccinated should no longer have access to free NHS healthcare.
    After all if the NHS recommends that you get vaccinated why would you want to use them anyway.
     
    #10466
  7. mallafets123

    mallafets123 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,571
    Likes Received:
    962
    Ridiculous comment. You do realise people pay for their use of the NHS.
    Should we stop smokers/drinkers for related illnesses using it for treatment?
     
    #10467
  8. Joe_z

    Joe_z Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2016
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    411
    The NHS were compliant in moving the elderly into care homes at the outset of this.
    People are not making rash decisions in not wanting to take the vaccination Steveo so i think you need to accept their choice can be justified.
     
    #10468
    smokethedeadbadger likes this.
  9. Steveo

    Steveo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,190
    Likes Received:
    765
    It’s quite funny when you think about it in that I have been criticised all year on here for criticising the government for their mixed messaging.

    the comments on here tonight prove that I was right because that mixed messaging has led to deep distrust in the government, which has resulted in a number of people clearly quite scared to now take the vaccine.

    More education obviously required.
     
    #10469
  10. smokethedeadbadger

    smokethedeadbadger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    Messages:
    7,972
    Likes Received:
    4,169
    How do you not see how you come across on here? Why do you find it so hard to accept or believe that people have different ideas or views to those of your own? We're all just uneducated idiots because we don't follow the Steveo hysteria
     
    #10470

  11. Steveo

    Steveo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,190
    Likes Received:
    765
    im not saying follow me - just listen to the medical experts for once!!
     
    #10471
  12. smokethedeadbadger

    smokethedeadbadger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    Messages:
    7,972
    Likes Received:
    4,169
    That's the point though, you listen to medical advice that you like the sound of or that you believe in and dismiss those that you don't believe in. There were credible studies around face masks that found that some of them actually help increase the spread of the virus, some actually made it to the main stream media, there was an interesting one from a university in Florida that Sky News actually covered but you wouldn't be interested in that because you don't believe it. Or studies done about surface to person infection being a myth or studies done that show children under 10 are extremely unlikely to pass it on to adults. There's plenty out there done by respected institutes but it doesn't always fit in with what we're being told so of no interest to you. But if we dare to believe any of the studies or science other than what you're following then we must all be fools. I read plenty about it because i have children to think about. I'll continue to read about it and keep an eye on the vaccine situation. You shouldn't be so dismissive of other peoples views just because they're different to yours.
     
    #10472
    LG and Joe_z like this.
  13. Joe_z

    Joe_z Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2016
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    411
    Steveo this has got **** all to do with anything other than whether you believe the vaccine being produced at such short notice is worth the risk. As QM stated it is impossible to know if there will be any adverse effect once we have passed the timescale tested.
     
    #10473
  14. Cyclonic

    Cyclonic Well Hung Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    15,320
    Likes Received:
    3,434
    Fair enough I suppose, but I'd rather look on the bright side and have some reasonable faith in science. As for the efficacy of the forum's few hundred members, I suspect some will go with the prevailing consensus among those working on the vaccines, in that they're of the opinion that the work they've undertaken is bearing fruit. Obviously the CDC has a far better handle on the science involved than those of us on this forum, so the sensible, rational thought should guide us on issues such as these. We should not be bound down by unreasonable or irrational fears. And I'm not for a moment inferring that you personally design your life around these kind of actions QM.

    As for the thought that the flu vaccine is ineffective, well it actually boils down to what kind of benchmark is applied to the term. If something has a built in failure rate, a claim can be made against it's efficacy. However such thinking, if we're not careful, can so easily lead us astray. The CDC's estimates of the flu efficacy in the US for each given year indicates great success. They estimate that during 2018-2019, flu vaccination prevented an estimated 4.4 million influenza illnesses, 2.3 million influenza-associated medical visits, 58,000 influenza-associated hospitalizations, and 3,500 influenza-associated deaths. I'm not sure what the percentage is, but if the flu vaccine is only 60% effective, should we then bin the vaccine to please the "sheep" who bleat about it not being as effective as their standards demand? Should millions of people be subjected to misery just to appease those who serve at the alter of ignorance?

    And I certainly don't want to be one of those unquestioning sheep who just accepts everything fed to me by the Establishment, this is an action only a fool would undertake. But to not accept that there is also truth in an establishment, is just as foolhardy. Each and every day we place our trust in past actions of the establishment, these are self evident truths. We wear mandated seat belts, we travel in planes, we place ourselves in the hands of surgeons etc. A whole host of the wonderful things we enjoy in today's society come from the establishment's endorsement of reasonable facts placed before experts in a given field.

    Nothing is black and white, there is a huge range of opinions and options between those two polar extremes. But society, if it's to advance, must take a reasonable stance when it comes to what the field of science offers. You rightly questioned the value of information from a forum of a few hundred members. We as individuals can't offer personally engineered science on issues such as vaccinations, so we have to make judgement calls on the veracity of those who actually work within the field. So is it realistic to place our unquestioning trust in any single member's opinion on this subject? I would suggest not. But I would suggest that it would be irresponsible to turn our back on science, solely because it's firstly generated by one establishment, and then endorsed by another.
     
    #10474
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  15. Cyclonic

    Cyclonic Well Hung Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    15,320
    Likes Received:
    3,434
    One commentator of this clip stated. "This man is an intellectual machine-gun spitting facts and logically breaking down the opponent like a goddamn MG 42." <laugh>

     
    #10475
  16. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    5,202
    Likes Received:
    1,953
    A quick two-step by Fauci. Has looked in a difficult position all year yet survived trump. His comment yesterday made him look foolish and almost a back-covering retort which he later withdrew. Only circumstance under which he could make his criticism was if the FDA did not license the drug.
     
    #10476
  17. QuarterMoonII

    QuarterMoonII Economist

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    8,256
    Likes Received:
    4,104
    Germany had it easy with the ‘first wave’ and now faces the issues that everyone else had; however, you would like to think that they have learned from seeing the mistakes that others have made.

    I present logical analysis and facts while Steveo presents warped ideological dogma and blind sycophancy to the pronouncements of unscientific SAGE. If he went on the Daily Racing Thread at 6pm every day and posted all the afternoon’s winners his after timing hindsight would be roundly criticised.

    He is incapable of reasoned debate because when presented with facts that do not support his ideological point of view he reverts to the default position of the Left: when losing the argument, stop arguing and resort to no platforming, cancel culture and wokeness.

    I was reading Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in the Telegraph the other day and he was arguing that the UK’s fast approval of vaccine (as opposed to the EU’s slow machinations resulting in inoculation not starting until the end of January) would see Britain reach herd immunity and be able to reopen its economy much quicker than the EU.

    I disagree with his conclusions. Firstly there is an assumption there for which there are no facts in evidence: the vaccine will result in herd immunity. Also, large parts of our economy, especially for the young, are reliant upon the hospitality and leisure sector, which has been unjustifiably penalised by government measures in the absence of anything but blind speculation from SAGE. Also, we will find it difficult to trade with a Europe that is still in economic freefall and crippled by deflation, Brexit Deal or No Deal.

    I also see that a survey conducted across Europe showed that almost half of people in France (46 per cent) would refuse to take a vaccine and more than a third would refuse in Spain (36 per cent) and Italy (35 per cent). So this pandemic is a long way from over as more and more people are becoming sceptical about the overbearing actions of their ruling classes, whether their mistrust of a vaccine is logical or not.
     
    #10477
  18. QuarterMoonII

    QuarterMoonII Economist

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    8,256
    Likes Received:
    4,104
    Let me state that at no time have I stated that nobody should take any vaccine so this is not a conspiracy theory. It has passed the required safety tests so it is reasonable to conclude that it is not going to harm you within the first ten months and nobody can argue that producing a vaccine is not actual science. I just gave a number of perfectly reasonable questions to which we ought to be seeking answers because if the vaccine turns out to only work for a few months, it will end up like the influenza vaccine with everyone having to take it every year.

    In the case of the current approved Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine that would present a logistical issue, although if the Oxford/AstraZeneca one gets approved the cost would be decimated and it does not have to be kept at -70 degrees. It should be pointed out that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine currently costs around £20 but they are a commercial operation and that cost could rise considerably in future years once the agreement to supply cheaply to end the pandemic has gone. I wonder if the global taxpayer, who threw billions at the pharmaceuticals to fund research this year, ought to be demanding that any resultant vaccines remain permanently at cost because otherwise they will become unaffordable to poorer countries.

    Whilst my parents are considerably older than yours, I leave it entirely to them to decide whether they want to take the vaccine. As my mother spent her whole working life as a nurse in the NHS, I would not be going out on a limb to guess that she and her husband will be taking it. Old age might kill the pair of them long before any side effect becomes apparent.
     
    #10478
  19. QuarterMoonII

    QuarterMoonII Economist

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    8,256
    Likes Received:
    4,104
    Let me quote to you from Telegraph columnist Allison Pearson, who has an NHS worker, whom she refers to as George, telling her what is really going on from the inside.

    Last week, Sir Patrick Vallance and Professor Chris Whitty presented another of their Graphs of Doom; this one cherry-picked a number of hospitals on course to run out of beds. “Actually”, said George, “the national picture continues to look promising. Covid occupancy has peaked or is falling in most regions.”

    Only 9 per cent of hospital beds in the south of England are presently occupied by Covid patients. As for admissions, on Monday the TV news told us there had been 1,641 Covid hospital “admissions” in the past 24 hours.
    Is this really true? According to George, only 25 per cent of that number will have arrived at hospital as a confirmed Covid case. What happens is that patients who come in with other conditions are tested in subsequent days for the virus. Those who test positive will be put down as a Covid admission and are then added to the tally for the day before their result comes back.
    Now comes the bombshell. Between 17.5 and 25 per cent of so-called “admissions”have acquired the virus while in hospital. “Those percentages have been stable for the past three months,” reports George. “Call it the NHS’s dirty secret. It is really really bad at infection control.”
    You are more likely to catch Covid in a hospital than in an unfairly maligned pub.


    So not just the Office for National Statistics cooking the numbers: the National Health Service is at it as well. Then the manufactured numbers are used by the data modellers at SAGE, who come up with total fantasy predictions.

    This is why people like me are not prepared to accept at face value what we are being told. This is no conspiracy theory, just reasonable questioning of things such as the ONS death toll (now over 60,000) as their methodology does not stand up to even simple scrutiny.
     
    #10479
  20. QuarterMoonII

    QuarterMoonII Economist

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    8,256
    Likes Received:
    4,104
    I was not questioning the science – as it is actually science in this instance. The questions that I posed were perfectly reasonable questions that cannot have been answered in ten months, no matter how long the regulator has spent poring over the scientific data. I am not a conspiracy theorist telling everyone not to take any vaccine because in a couple of years they will grow horns and cloven hooves. When I was referring to efficacy, I meant the potency/benefit of the vaccine not this forum.

    Most people would consider that 60 per cent is a high enough threshold to make a vaccine worthwhile as opposed to say just 25 per cent. The inescapable fact is that the influenza vaccine is known to be only around 60 per cent effective and the effects wear off after a few months, so it has to be administered every year – we in Britain see the NHS campaign every winter telling the vulnerable to get inoculated (take up is only around 70 per cent). At this time there is no evidence that I have seen supplied that this will not also become the case with any of the plague vaccines (currently approved or not). Perhaps this is still a known unknown but they could try telling us. They claim it is 95 per cent effective but they cannot state for how long or whether you can still be an asymptomatic carrier.

    Arguably the reason that a vaccine has been synthesised in record breaking time is because of market competition. All of the world’s big pharmaceutical players have been involved in work on a number of potential vaccines to the virtual exclusion of almost any other research as billions of dollars/pounds/Euros have been ploughed into the effort by first world countries. We would all like to think that this is a race that will produce lots of winners and from the perspective of the world population generally it is to be hoped that the cheapest (and most easily distributable) vaccine from Oxford/AstraZeneca is one of them.
     
    #10480
    LG, Ron and Cyclonic like this.

Share This Page