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Off Topic Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Southampton' started by ChilcoSaint, Feb 23, 2016.

  1. Farked19

    Farked19 Well-Known Member

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    The Hong Kong situation needs some careful analysis I think. Whilst not being against the offer of citizenship to three million residents I do feel that this could supercharge populism. All we need is a Farage type figure exploiting the fears of " Red Wall" type members of the electorate for their own purposes and we could end up with a nasty situation. It appears quite similar to the Kenyan episode of the 1970's.

    What must not be allowed to happen is the poorer and less well educated paying for this in terms of worse job prospects, housing and health care. The wealthier members of society must play their part.
     
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  2. saintrichie123

    saintrichie123 Well-Known Member

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    Bad news coming soon.

     
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  3. saintrichie123

    saintrichie123 Well-Known Member

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  4. Schad

    Schad Well-Known Member

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    There are more American war deaths in the past twenty years than in the twenty preceding. By a considerable margin. 1981 - 2000 had a little over 500 combat deaths; 2001 - 2020 had more than ten times that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war

    Wow, they allow the most basic of civil rights. I mean, they'll beat you, tear gas and summarily arrest you for exercising that right, and the president will threaten extreme violence against you, but it's not totally outlawed. Neat!

    I mean, I'd look at the situations and determine how much defusing needs to take place. In most of these violent interactions, there would be nothing to defuse if the police did not immediately escalate them. Exactly how much defusing needs to happen in "skinny kid listens to music while coming home from the store" until several police officers tackle them?

    I'd also look at what "compliance" means to the police. In a lot of cases, it means that you are resisting, where 'resisting' means 'moving after the police have taken you to the ground', often for no reason. Now, on paper, that seems reasonable: it's in your best interests not to resist. Even if the police action is illegal, as a great many are. You cannot summarily tackle or arrest people; the 4th Amendment (which protects against unlawful search and seizure) is a thing. But given that your choice is generally to comply with an unlawful order or potentially be killed, you probably shouldn't stand on principle.

    However, that means setting aside all of human nature, because the means by which the police attempt to get compliance guarantees resistance. They inflict pain in the hopes that it will cause the person to stop moving, and inflict more pain if it does not. That, my friend, is not how human beings work. When placed in extremely painful positions, human beings will try to relieve the discomfort. Especially placed in those positions for an extended duration.

    If you doubt me, I'd suggest that you search out your local Brazilian jiu jitsu studio, and ask them to put you in a joint lock. Tell them that, any time that you struggle, they should increase the amount of pressure. Even if means damaging the joint. Obviously, they won't do it, because anyone with two grains of sense will know that it'll only end one way: with your arm ripped out of your socket. Yet this is precisely how the police try to compel people to be still. It's almost as if the cruelty is not incidental.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
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  5. Libby

    Libby 9-0

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    #26165
  6. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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    On the urging of Priti Patel no doubt, who threatened action against Avon & Somerset Police if they didn’t pursue the perpetrators.
     
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  7. Osvaldorama

    Osvaldorama Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough - that is really bad in context. Honestly, until gun laws, racism and wealth inequality are addressed, America will continue to see more shocking stats.

    Come on, setting up autonomous zones, burning down buildings, even being allowed to protest and vent frustrations during a global pandemic. Its hardly China is it. It's an extremely volatile situation, with people actively trying to make all cops look as bad as possible.

    Trump did also condemn the George Floyd death, and said he'd look into it... I know you can't trust a word he says, but it is worth pointing out.

    I have actually done a couple of BJJ classes, so i know what you mean when you say it's brutal <laugh>. All I will say is it has to be taken on a case by case basis, and both the community and the police have to be held accountable properly, without witch hunts and without making people fear for their lives and/or their careers.

    I really hope someone can come up with a solution to these issues that will appease everyone. It's really not hard to treat everyone equally regardless of race/gender/anything and it boggles my mind that we are still having to talk about this stuff.

    I saw earlier that 8.3 million guns have been sold in America since March. Yikes.
     
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  8. Schad

    Schad Well-Known Member

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    But if an organization consistently, over the course of a century, demonstrates that it's fundamentally incapable of treating everyone equally, routinely violates the civil rights of the populace, kills an ever-escalating number of people that dwarfs that of other countries (for every 1 person killed by UK police in 2018-2019, US police killed more than 500), and responds with open hostility to the notion that any reform is necessary, at what point do we admit that marginal reform isn't going to cut it? Because if this was any other group, if not for the veneration of authority and uniform, it would have been destroyed root and branch decades ago. Policing agencies in their current form in the United States do not make things more safe, they make things less safe. They have such a perverse culture that a significant portion of the population will not call them under any circumstances, because the risks of them utilizing force against the wrong person are too high. Like when a black shop-owner called police to report a white shoplifter; they broke the shop-owner's jaw and arrested him, while letting the shoplifter go, and the police department defended their actions:

    https://www.nydailynews.com/news/na...0200609-x6mk4vwfkvhe3bzvw2rn2gakya-story.html

    That **** happens all the damned time. Police treat most black people as inherently dangerous, and default to the belief that they are the perpetrator at any scene, and preemptively apply force. To be black and in the presence of police is to have your life endangered by any wrong move (or perceived wrong move). That is not upholding the peace; for a large portion of the American populace, there is no greater threat to their well-being than a police interaction, even if you were the victim of a crime.
     
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  9. Osvaldorama

    Osvaldorama Well-Known Member

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    Again, the situation is grim but if you reduce the argument to 'do we need a police force' the answer is an obvious yes.

    So you have to accept and keep working some of the issues in the hope of keeping the majority peaceful.

    Look at the Chaz, in less than a few weeks, the 'peaceful security team' alrrady murdered two black teenagers.

    If the choice is violent police force or total societal anarchy and breakdown (which it cutrently is) - the only answer is to try and make the police better.

    That state where you said they reformed the police - will Trump honestly do that everywhere? Not a chance.
     
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  10. Schad

    Schad Well-Known Member

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    Almost no one is suggesting that there be no police forces. Certainly no one in any position of authority, either in politics or in the BLM movement.

    What needs to happen is the abolition of police forces as currently constituted. The current police agencies have demonstrated that they simply will not reform; start fresh, with agencies with much more limited scope, far different training, and without the giant bloody arsenals. Throwing more money at police has made the problem worse; it's time for a different approach.
     
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  11. Schad

    Schad Well-Known Member

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    https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article243932047.html

    Note that this came to light in no small part because the officers forgot to 'accidentally' turn off their bodycams as they thought they had.
     
    #26171
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  12. Archers Road

    Archers Road Urban Spaceman

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    Twitter is full of arseholes, of every persuasion. Where does all that hate come from? Social Media is a cesspit.
     
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  13. Archers Road

    Archers Road Urban Spaceman

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    David Cameron and Theresa May defunded the police in the U.K. Now Boris Johnson and the Tory press are blaming Labour Mayor Sadiq Khan for the exponential rise in knife crime in London.

    “Defund the Police” may mean something other than “cut funding to the Police”, but from this side of the Atlantic, it’s a retarded slogan.
     
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  14. Schad

    Schad Well-Known Member

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    Yet the casualty of austerity that had the greatest impact is exactly the sort of thing that BLM sorts are calling for:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-48208208

    These sorts of programs are precisely what is needed. Not more random traffic stops. Not heavier weaponry. Not more violence as a prophylactic. But most activists do not believe that police departments steeped in idiotic warrior culture are capable of running such programs, either. Hence the desire to redirect money from police departments to separate agency that would take on some of the tasks currently undertaken by the police.

    And THAT is what 'defund the police' means. Take the money currently being used on bloated police budgets, which have little demonstrated effect on crime, and spend that money on the forms of community engagement that have proven time and again to prevent crime from happening.
     
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  15. Osvaldorama

    Osvaldorama Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, I just cannot see it happening. Least of all in America, a country that still has the death penalty in some states.

    Fox news would twist it into 'going easy on criminals' etc. and it would cause outrage to republicans. Its a nice idea, but this is the country that voted to build a wall and MAGA.

    People don't like to think of criminals as people that can be reformed, they always jump straight to 'PUNISH THEM'.
     
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  16. shoot_spiderman

    shoot_spiderman Power to the People

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    Eleven?

    Number of people shot to death by the police in the United States from 2017 to 2020, by race


    2017 2018 2019 2020*
    White 457 399 370 204
    Black 223 209 235 105
    Hispanic 179 148 158 66
    Other 44 36 39 15
    Unknown 84 204 202 116


     
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  17. Osvaldorama

    Osvaldorama Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, i said earlier I got the figures wrong.

    I got the info from a podcast, which was talking about the killing of unarmed black people, not black people in general. The real number is 25 unarmed black people were killed in 2019.

    Although that 25 are those just shot by police, not killed by choking etc. like George Floyd.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/5322455002

    25 is a lot. It's too much. But in a country with that much violent crime, surely a certain percentage altercations will be expected to go badly?

    There have also been a range of scientific studies that show systemic racism isnt a problem, according to the wall street journal:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883

    Personally, I believe the black community that say there is a big problem. But it is very diffucult to actually know, unless youre there.

    Thats why I say we have to be very careful when making big decisions about changing Police policy.
     
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  18. shoot_spiderman

    shoot_spiderman Power to the People

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    I was catching up

    I’m not sure how “there” I need to be, this is an impossible test to pass
    There is a big problem, how can you not believe that?
    Very easy to get drawn into ALM thinking
    If it’s not systemic then clearly many police officers are psychopaths and that needs a solution
    Except they then get protected by the system, you know, the one that isn’t racist
     
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  19. shoot_spiderman

    shoot_spiderman Power to the People

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    Another point, ‘armed’ in the UK very different from ‘armed’ in the US where so many people carry guns
     
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  20. Schad

    Schad Well-Known Member

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    #26180

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