Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Norwich City

So what's been Alli's excuse for the previous 2 and a bit years then? The guy hasn't found consistent form since the 16/17 season. Flashes of brilliance followed by extended spells of mediocrity.

Lucas showed last night about the lack of end product, a square ball to Alli puts the game to bed. The guy's a grafter but his productivity levels are severely low.

Winks is not playing well at all. He doesn't protect the back four, he doesn't produce anything creative he just runs about and gives the ball to the closest person to him. Yes I hate him, because he's a criminally average footballer who's part of the very reason why our team is in a huge decline.

 

Alli's excuse is playing out of position. Pochettino did it and now Mourinho's doing it, too.
When he's playing off a striker he scores goals and gets assists. When he doesn't he may as well not be playing.
He's been trying to do a job since Son got injured, but it doesn't suit him and it's not working.

Winks has been playing fine for months. He often gets isolated and overrun due to our dodgy tactics.

 

I agree I’m not enjoying the way we play...I’m just trying to understand things from the new managers perspective and trying to give him the chance to build his own team...can’t wait for the season to end so that we can re group, hopefully.

 

He's not been out of position for a 2 and a bit years though. He can be phenomenal on his day but his day is too far and few between and has been since his first two seasons at the club.

Winks really hasn't been playing fine. There often seems to be a new excuse for him though, a season or two ago it was because he returned from injury, then it was because he has to play in a three not a two, now he's isolated or playing in dodgy tactics. All I see is a player that works hard but has zero to offer this team, he can't defend, he can't create, he can't control a midfield, he's not someone who can pop up with a goal every now and then, there is literally nothing too him other than him being a Spurs fan from the academy.

 

I can see why we're playing Alli as a false nine (since I'm the berk who keeps bringing up Dortmund playing Reus as a false nine...) but the obvious issue is that he keeps dropping deeper to get the ball, as the pass map for the Wolves game demonstrates

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If he stays up top there's an option available for Lo Celso, Bergwijn, Lucas or Aurier to aim for - but just like Wayne Rooney was guilty of for over a decade, if Dele doesn't get the ball he drops deeper to find it...which isn't a problem if Dele is playing behind the striker as that means other players can get forward, but it is a problem when he's playing as a false nine yet is playing so deep that Ben Davies was further up the pitch when receiving the ball when Dele was

 

Alli has been playing out of position for over 2 years.
Pochettino started moving him around to play weird formations and he ended up on the left and in the middle.
He's got one position that he plays really well and we've decided not to play him there.

Winks is not the problem, but even if he was it would be pointless to get rid of him.
We literally can't replace him because of the club/homegrown rules.
He has been playing fine, though. Others around him? Not so much.

 

The thing with Winks is that he clearly needs a DM next to him, because while he can pick off loose balls to recycle them he can't break up play to save his life

If he had peak Wanyama next to him he could play his game effectively, which is the Modric/Rakitic-type metronome (and not the Iniesta some people said he was a couple of years ago) but when he's part of a flimsy pivot alongside Sissoko or Lo Celso it exposes his defensive frailties while also making it possible to exploit his lack of press resistance

That's why Poch played him in the Jorginho role of a midfield three at the start of the season, as he had Sissoko and Ndombele screening him so he could play his game more effectively...but the thing is I don't think that's the best role for him either, because any attacks going through the middle would go through him (literally, in some cases) so the better way to deploy him is as the sitter in a midfield three while Lo Celso runs and NEW DM mops up

 

Winks's major talent is keeping the ball moving. He gives and goes, making angles to receive the ball and moving it on. Yes, too much of it has been sideways but that reflects the fact that we've lost any form of identity in playing as an attacking force and you can now foul players in midfield with impunity. He looks so much better in European games and he'd do great in Italy.

He's not really suited to how Mourinho wants us to play, as a counter attacking unit, as he lacks physicality and isn't an instant, incisive forward passer. We'd probably be better off with Danny Drinkwater...and to an extent, I'm not joking.

If you're going to play a particular system, buy the players most suited to doing it. It's exactly what Klopp's done. Most of his players aren't world class but they fit the system. Taking players who are suited to playing on the front foot and playing on the back foot, with very little goal threat, a porous defence and a midfield lacking enforcers, is a recipe for failure.

The problem is that Mourinho isn't changing or learning or adapting. He just changes the players and now with injuries and bans, that's gone too. We're going to lose a lot of games between now and the end of the season...and we can do better.

 

We generally played 4231 with a spell of 3421 under Poch and Alli was an attacking mid in both formations, often drifting a little from the left. Nothing really changed with his position from the 15/16 & 16/17 seasons where he was brilliant to the 17/18 and 18/19 seasons where he was inconsistent. This season the formation has had to change so even if we excused his form this campaign, there's still two other seasons where he's shown huge levels of inconsistency.

Winks really is a part of the problem because he's not a good enough player and he never has been. He doesn't have a USP, no creativity, no occasional goal threat, no defensive solidity, he's just a player that runs about a bit and plays far too many pointless sideways or backwards passes.
You're right in that he is CG and we're short on those, so the chances of binning him off are slim... Unfortunately. I'll hold onto the hope though that if/ when Ndombele fixes his fitness, I won't have to watch Winks very often.

 

Alli was moved a lot wider and deeper under Pochettino.
He wasn't playing off the striker, which is what he needs to do to get the best out of him.
It started in the 17/18 season, then got a lot worse in the last season and a bit.

The fact that you're happier with Ndombele than Winks says everything.
He looks miles out of shape and he's gassing after about 10 minutes.
You're blaming Winks for things that the managers have done.

 

I wonder if part of our demise was our introduction to this sideways backwards game,giving the opposing team plenty of time to load their defences. ...and as we have seen,the opposition have known beforehand what we do and have benefitted with 3 points. This season's disaster started with us giving Newcastle 3 points and making Bruce look a genius manager.
A season to remember without a doubt. Colchester.Bayern…...and now bottom of the table Norwich. Even City have tried their best to get us in the CL next season,but no! We screw up too. Ok no Son or Harry.But where our replacement/s? We ain't got none! Can we win any more games this season with the present crew?

 

He's always drifted inside from the left, Eriksen was the central attacking midfielder, he'd also drift wider to the right to allow Alli more space to come inside, Alli's position really didn't change much under Poch, his effectiveness in the role/ system did. This is the only season where we can genuinely say Alli's been played out of position.

You're putting words into my mouth by saying I'm happier with Ndombele. Saying that when he's fit I want him to start over Winks is different to saying I'm happier with him. I think every Spurs fan is pretty pissed a £60m professional footballer can't get fit and puffs after just 20 minutes of football. Though it's pretty damning when a fat, unfit, injury prone new signing who's missed spells of the season already has more assists and the same amount of goals for Spurs in 7 months than someone's had in 4 years.

I'm blaming Winks for simply being a poor and ineffective player. There's nothing else really too it. Fans just keep making excuses for him though; returned from injury, needs to play in a three, is overrun, manager's tactics. He's a central midfielder that can't create, can't defend, can't score an occasional goal, can't dribble and can't boss a game... This squad has declined all over the shop and Winks is one of those who's part of that decline.

 

When Dier said, "It's my brother", was he making a rather edgy little joke, suggesting that it wasn't him (cf Mourinho's comment to Alli)? Asking for a friend.

 

Is them's the new Not606 rules? Sorry mate must've missed that meeting.

I only asked a question bro, why are you getting so upset? I'm very open-minded to conspiracy theories.

 

I

Was in the North ,block 110 and a small group were just toxic towards the team Winks, Dele, Lucas and Dier all got a constant slagging , not a nice experience
One guy who had kids with him complained to a steward and he then became the point of the abuse so much that he moved but nothing was done to them , they were not Tottenham fans they left at full time , poor response from the stewards

 

One really, really, really small bit of good news from yesterday’s game was Jose’s comments on Skipp. I’d hoped Skipp would have a good game and he didn’t disappoint me or seemingly Jose.

Hopefully that “phenomenal performance” as Jose said means we’ll be seeing him start on the weekend and featuring in more games going forward.

 

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You're clearly a closet winks fan mate you just don't know it

 

Just because it's different to everyone else, I thought I'd mention that there was no crowd trouble near me.
One bloke kept singing, "Pukka give us a pie, Pukka, Pukka, gives us a pie!", at Pukki though, which seemed to piss him off massively.