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Mourinho...how long will he be given?

Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by remembercolinlee, Jan 1, 2020.

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How long will he be given?

  1. Til we go out of the CL?

    1 vote(s)
    4.2%
  2. Til the end of the season?

    5 vote(s)
    20.8%
  3. Til next Oct/Nov?

    13 vote(s)
    54.2%
  4. Will be a success so irrelevant?

    5 vote(s)
    20.8%
  1. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    As I said before I'm certainly not exactly gushing at Jose's performance as manager and for someone of his reputation and calibre I’ve expected better but I've certainly come to the realisation that too many of these players are done at this club, add in the amount of injuries we’re getting including our two best players and I guess it’s pretty inevitable to expect **** on a plate most weeks.

    Regardless of tactics or setup, you can’t control dickheads like Alderweireld getting outpaced by Grandad Giroud and then Vertonghen bottling the rebound shot, even if Jan’s legs have gone that doesn’t mean you can’t throw your body on the line, Michael Dawson was past his best for us in his final year or two yet you could guarantee he’d still take a bullet to save a shot.

    I said on the Chelsea thread I’ve come to hate some of my own players and Toby tops that list by a mile. Can’t stand snide people and he’s the epitome of one. Flirted with leaving for two years, turned in dogshit performances for as long as any other player (which contributed to Poch losing his job), rejected multiple contracts because he wanted more money and expected to get it elsewhere, didn’t get his dream move so done an Ozil by conning us out of a big contract whilst saying it was always his priority. At least the likes of Rose, Trippier and Eriksen - all of whom have gotten abuse by fans - had/ have the balls to be honest. I respect a person far more for being straight up, even if it’s not what you wanna hear.

    There are far too many I wish we could sell in the summer, it’ll never happen but if it were down to me I’d accept bids for any of these because they’re either not good enough, a has-been, or injury prone:
    Toby, Aurier, Rose, KWP, Dier, Wanyama, Winks, Lamela, Lucas and Dele. Vorm and Jan too as their contracts end.

    Levy’s prudence and Poch’s stubbornness/ loss of mojo are to blame for allowing this side to go stale and now Levy needs to pull his finger out and show some real intent because it won’t matter who’s in charge of Tottenham if they’re having to deal with most of these players.
     
    #221
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  2. Lovearsenalcock

    Lovearsenalcock Homeboy
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    3 months, that’s all

    Most of you were making excuses for Poch after 6 years when it had been stale for a year and some

    Ultimately all paths in these conversations will lead to ENIC/Levy
     
    #222
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  3. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    ENIC are ultimately responsible and were right to sack Poch. That said, Jose Mourinho was never the right man for the job and nothing I’ve seen from him so far has said otherwise, yes there is a few injuries in key positions but he’s picked odd line ups and tactically been outclassed by inexperienced and inferior managers and already started with his press conference nonsense
     
    #223
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  4. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    The list of managers good enough to have replaced Poch would’ve been very small to be fair. Whilst Allegri was who I really wanted, Jose’s reputation in the game is certainly of someone good enough to replace Poch.

    Whether Jose proves the right fit in time remains to be seen but it’s far, far too early to write him off. If I’m not mistaken, prior to the Chelsea game, only Liverpool and City had a better record in the Prem than Spurs since Jose came in so he’s certainly not done a bad job, even if there are things that aren’t looking great coupled with questionable decisions.

    Injuries and form of supposed key players have been a huge factor of poor results and performances, so many individual mistakes are just something that can’t be coached. Ultimately I really hope we back Jose in the summer and let him build his own team, once he’s primarily got an XI that’s mainly of his choosing then I’ll judge him. That’s not to say he’s not allowed to be criticised now, because he is and his management in big games especially has been disappointing so far but for me the real judgement begins next season.
     
    #224
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  5. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    ENIC aren't going anywhere, nor is Daniel Levy. Most of the current squad aren't leaving either. At the very most, eight of the current 23 might leave this summer. We don't lead the market on transfer fees and most of the departees aren't worth much..

    Mourinho knew this when he took the job. He knew we weren't going to spend like United or Chelsea. He knew that he'd have to go through a reasonably major rebuild, replacing Rose, Vertonghen, Toby, Wanyama and Llorente. He would have known that he'd have to do so by developing young players like Foyth...Sessegnon and...Ndombele....and Parrott.

    I've got some real sympathy over the injuries. Losing Kane and Sonny at the same time's not his fault (actually, he overplayed Kane over Christmas, but I'm putting that aside...) but other than that, the job shouldn't be a surprise to him.

    Mourinho will have money to spend that puts him alongside and probably above Arsenal, Leicester, Wolves, Sheffield United, Everton, etc. He's got some sensational talents at the club in Kane, Sonny and Lo Celso. This summer, he's got to get more out of less in the market and sort out Ndombele, Parrott, Sessegnon, Foyth, etc. That was always the job and if it's not for him, there are plenty of younger, hungry managers who'd love the opportunity.

    Being clever in press conferences isn't going to help him here. Like at United, he's got a real task on his hands. Time to get on with managing his way out of this...
     
    #225
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  6. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    Fair points but when has Jose ever rebuilt or managed his way out of trouble?

    Like I keep saying, I don’t see a brand or style of football that the team is building towards and while he may get a few results here and there, the performances are mainly pretty dire to watch
     
    #226
  7. The Huddlefro

    The Huddlefro Well-Known Member

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    There has to be a first time for everything right? After all, I suspect the vast majority of us believed Poch would win something with us, which he’d never done, and were willing to be patient for him to do it (until after the CL final anyway, in many cases).

    In some ways we’re a good fit for José right now because when he came in (and even now) it’s a real backs to the wall situation - he excels when he can create that feeling of adversity and feed off it. That said like all of us I have reservations about the style of play. Ultimately I just want to win something though - no doubt Poch was a great manager for us for years during the first rebuild, maybe José is who we need to get us over the line?

    I don’t think we’ll be able to make a true assessment until at least after the summer though and I don’t see him leaving before the end of next season unless something goes badly, badly wrong.
     
    #227
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  8. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    Not a first time at this stage of his career, the last job he had that he didn’t have huge funds or managing the biggest team in the league was probably Porto and that was 16 years ago. I think his style of management is out dated and his tactics definitely are.

    I still think he will be gone by October when the team make a poor start to the league next season and are languishing in the bottom half and he’s fully turned on them and the fans and will be running his mouth daring Levy to sack him.
     
    #228
  9. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you. I'm yet to see anything more than a bit more heart to come back against some teams and dig in against some others, which might be nothing to do with Mourinho and down to the players alone or getting rid of Poch version 2019.

    Unless he walks (not something that he's done before), he's unlikely to leave before next season. So, I'm hoping that he's going to be showing us what we're paying him for between now and August. If we're going to be counnter-attacking, FFS set up the defence to keep the ball out of our net!

    Until then, I'll be sceptical but wishing that Levy's got it right. We don't need to be paying him off and rebuilding again under another manager. It'll definitely cost us Sonny and Kane and maybe, Lo Celso.
     
    #229
  10. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    A few years back there was a Guardian article that outlined one thing about Levy's hires: whenever he took a risk it paid off, with the article highlighting Jol and Redknapp (and we can add Poch, who was hired a couple of years after the article was published, to that list), but when he played it safe we ended up enduring poor football and results under Santini and Ramos that had us rapidly reaching for the reset button

    That's where I always had an issue with Steptonho being brought in. He's the safe choice, the one that the Reddit and Twitter crowds were yelling for us to bring in because they can read a Wikipedia page and think that's all the context they need, when in reality we're simply not a club that fits the parameters of his career - we're not in a position where there's a minimum of one or a maximum of two teams standing between us and the title as there was at Porto, his first Chelsea stint, Inter or Los Ladrones which can be navigated by one of those teams having an off season as Sporting and Arsenal obliged, nor do we have the mountain of cash to rebuild a team in his image that Chelsea, Los Ladrones or Man Utd offered

    The irony is that, if he wants to turn things around, he needs to take a similar approach that Poch did by building up youngsters to instill a sense of loyalty in them - but while he has done this with Tanganga, he's failed to do so with Skipp and Parrott so far even though both of them would actually be quite bloody useful in the team right now
     
    #230

  11. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    That's quite intriguing for me because now we get to see the real Jose. Him and Pep have always managed the best sides or the sides with the most money, Jose doesn't have that here so it's a good test. Unfortunately for him, he's inherited a bigger **** show than he or even us imagined and the losses of Kane and Son have made any form of 'success' this season highly unlikely.

    In terms of our style, we haven't really had a true identity for about 2 years now. The Poch press died around 2018. I think Jose wants a solid defensive unit with a quick counter via a creative midfield and speedy attack. Problem is there's so many individual mistakes, especially from the defence, that the game plan/ tactics are looking wrong when in fact his players are just letting him down, just as they did Pochettino although he has to take blame for that for being too faithful to them.

    Ironically enough I think I've said this statement for probably the third year running but this summer is now massive for Spurs. Get it wrong and we're going back to the days of scrapping for Europa (if we're lucky!). Get it right and we'll be in the CL spots and competing for a trophy of some sort under Jose's guidance.
     
    #231
  12. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

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    **ESSAY INCOMING**

    Clutching at straws here but an article I read over the weekend gave me at least a glimmer of hope for two reasons. The first is Joao Sacramento and his growing influence over Maureen. The latter apparently moved heaven and earth to bring him in from Lille, who were very reluctant to let him leave. He was seen on the continent as the next Julian Nagelsman - a young progressive coach with loads of fresh ideas about tactics and strategy. That Maureen hand picked him is telling that he is at least open to the idea of new angles and approaches, and chose an assistant who wouldn't just rubber stamp every decision to reflect that.

    The other point was how on multiple occasions, Maureen has referred back to the way we played against West Ham in his opening game as the way he wants us playing every week. Granted, the last 20 minutes that game were a joke, but what preceded that was like watching us in our pomp under Poch. And what is even more encouraging is that we were far from full strength in that game. Lo Celso and Tanganga hadn't yet emerged, Tanguy and Hugo were injured, Davies went off injured iirc. Fast forward a few months and all 4/5 of those players can be expected to play a part in the match day squad. Literally the only strength we had that day was a shape that worked. With Kane and Son fully fit, our gameplan was immediately obvious. That Maureen is looking to get us back to playing like that permanently is encouraging - but simply cannot be done with current injuries.

    The games against United and Chelsea aside, Maureen's opening stretch of games was enormously promising. Huge question marks should and have been asked about the way he set us up against his former clubs, but ultimately we were undoubtedly seeing signs of progress. The football against Wet Spam, Burnley and Bmouth was truly a joy to watch for long periods. The win at Molineux against a genuinely phenomenal Wolves side (who may well finish above us this season) was as hard-fought as we'd seen in a long time. Then Rudiger auditioned for swan lake, Son stupidly kicked out, got himself suspended, and immediately you could see the system beginning to crumble. Scraped a victory against Brighton, somehow got a draw at Carrow Road and then that debacle at Soton in which Kane picked up his injury just as Son was about to return from suspension. The timing literally couldn't have been more crap.

    And yet, we were also seeing clear signs of improvement soon after that. A dogged defeat to Pool (I was expecting to be absolutely tanked in that game so 0-1 felt almost like a win tbh) followed by that little unbeaten run that had hallmarks of Maureen, having only just begun to find a system full stop, had also begun to find a system without Kane. And then, obviously, because karma hates us and we aren't allowed nice things since sacking BMJ in the middle of a game via a text message, Son picks up his injury and we are - for the THIRD fecking time this season - back to square one.

    I never thought I'd see myself say this, but I have a lot of sympathy for Maureen. He has gone from being on the brink of finding a system to replace Poch's, to the brink of finding a system to replace Poch's and without Kane, to now having to find a system to replace Poch's and without Kane and Son. It is simply mental. 3 games in 6 days means he's literally had zero time to work on said system. News of Son's injury and its extent wasn't even obvious until the day after Villa, so he's had even less time to prepare a Plan C. We now have a solid clear week, followed by a another triple-header of tricky fixtures in Wolves, Norwich and Burnley ("you know what you are") away. But I am intrigued to see what can be achieved on the training ground in preparation for those games. To my mind, if we start to see signs of improvement in the same way as we did after Poch's sacking and again after Kane's injury, it will confirm for me that Maureen and his coaching staff are the right people to take us forward into next season. And trust me lads, if I'm saying this, it might well be true. I'm practically Poch's son <laugh>.
     
    #232
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  13. PleaseNotPoll

    PleaseNotPoll Well-Known Member
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    Davies got injured with about 20 minutes to go. They scored their first while he was struggling and he was subbed off just after that.
     
    #233
  14. The Huddlefro

    The Huddlefro Well-Known Member

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    I think it’s all situational with styles of management ultimately. He clashed with the likes of Pogba at United and the club backed the player over the manager. The big players at Spurs aren’t that kind of personality, Alli aside but they appear to buy into each other (for now, and Alli doesn’t have the influence here that Pogba and co appeared to have on the United dressing room).

    Ultimately I’m not brave enough to stick my neck out and say I know what will have happened by October or further ahead. I’d be surprised if he went early next season especially if we get it right over the summer window, but bigger surprises have happened in football.

    If Mou is here until the end of next season, and we win a trophy in that time and continue to refresh the squad with young, exciting talent, then I would consider that a resounding success and a great platform to appoint another ‘dynastic’ manager to take us on for the next 5 years. Whether that happens or whether he leaves in October with his tail between his legs is anyone’s guess and there are a lot of variables in play.
     
    #234
  15. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    I feel like this guy has managed to say what I’ve partly been getting at and what CK’s partly been getting at all in a single tweet <laugh>



    He just fails to mention our also once reliable defence has now turned to dogshit so we can’t even graft out a draw as they’re always giving the opposition a 1-0 headstart.
     
    #235
  16. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

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    I think that's included under "inherited a broken team". We only managed 1 clean sheet under Poch this season (v Palace) so that area was already long past a quick fix.

    The only aspect of our defense that Maureen deserves proper criticism for was awarding Toby a 3.5 year new contract, making him one of the best paid defenders on the planet in the process. I wouldn't have minded either a far shorter term or a far lower salary, but the guy has done zilch this season to warrant what was given him and we are now likely going to be stuck with him until he is 35 years old. I know you've been railing against this a lot since it happened and I totally agree.
     
    #236
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  17. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    There's plenty of grounds to criticise him for handling our defence
    * Putting us at a one-man disadvantage at the back with his insistence of Aurier starting, usually somewhere near the opponent's corner flag
    * Inexplicably forgetting that he was freezing out Rose and starting him at Anfield
    * Consistently starting a clearly declining Vertonghen at CB, which usually has him dropping Sanchez
    * Giving numerous starts to Dier in spite his limitations as a midfielder being exposed and he's unable to play 90 minutes
    * Never starting Tanganga in his natural position of CB, even though he'd be a safer bet than Verts for a start

    To be brutally honest we should consider starting a few games for the remainder of the season with a Sanchez/Tanganga pairing at CB because not only has Verts' decline this season been utterly shocking, but Toby really could do with a couple of games in the stands to let him know we're not going to let him stroll through his defensive duties when there's two younger, hungrier options available (and that's before adding Foyth to the equation)
     
    #237
  18. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    When did Jose fix the broken team? The Burnley game? Other than that, I can’t think of a spectacular performance
     
    #238
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  19. yossarian

    yossarian Well-Known Member

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  20. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    We're not in need of spectacular performances, we're in need of results and that's what he was primarily getting despite numerous injuries throughout the squad. Since he joined Spurs only City and Pool had collected more points than Spurs in that time frame. Hard to see we'll keep up the win ratio now though without both our best players.
     
    #240

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