Off Topic Politics Thread

And they would NEVER have happened under a tory GOVT ?

PS

1st Gulf War John Major

F**K all to do with anything other than democracy …..

 

Socialism isn't necessarily the answer. The "dirtbag left" Socialists in the US aren't any better than the alt-right.

You can't go all in on capitalism or socialism or any other type of government. And there's a lot of gray area in between where things can work.

The Republicans in the US aren't bad because they believe in conservative principles. They're bad because they're assholes. The left has its share as well, it's just that at this point in time-- and probably for the last few decades IMO-- the right being assholes has been the biggest problem in the US and UK.

Trump used to be a Democrat. And when he was, he was still in asshole. I don't really know how much he cares about politics even now. If he knew that going far left would 100% guarantee a second term in office, he would start making progressive policy promises in a flash. But I still wouldn't vote for him, because he'd still be an asshole.

 

Nice diversion! The post was a direct, specific response to the ludicrous claim that: "[the Tories] have been embroiled in all the main political scandals in the 20th century" (yes, I've made it up to date so I included the 21st century).

When you read superlatives like "all" or "always" or "never" or "only" or "impossible", your antennae should perk up. Much, if not most, of the time such claims will prove to be unfounded. And all you need to do to show them to be examples of black and white thinking is to find a single counterexample.

So, the Tories have NOT been embroiled in all scandals....

And similarly "backing a VNC is the only option in town to thwart Johnson through the vehicle of Parliament". Other options exist, so it's a false claim.

My argument here, as always, isn't about the Tories or Labour, it's about the extremism (both ways) of current arguments. Things are commented upon as if they must be either black or white. It's a major source of strife. Life / governments / football performances aren't perfect or abject. I do it occasionally if I lose focus but I try very hard not to fall into the trap.

Oh, I'm bored of making the same point about greys over and over, so **** it. I give up.

Vin

 

Don’t give up Vin, I for one actually agree with you on this, you may be surprised to learn. My view is that the Brexit debacle has completely shattered the established political lines, so much so that we need to just forget about whatever happened in the past and take a pragmatic approach.

2 things actually matter now, immediately now. First we have to stop Brexit, by WHATEVER means. Secondly, we have to tackle climate change head on. Of course I don’t mean that other social injustices are less important, just that these two issues impinge on everything else.

If we don’t do the first, doing the second becomes harder, because the EU is actually a very important player in imposing restrictions on carbon emissions throughout Europe, and our leaving to establish a tax haven will hasten the planet’s demise that bit quicker. It’s become crystal clear in recent months that Brexit is a strategy of the super-rich to nail down their wealth advantages by permanent tax avoidance.

If we get to a point where we have a unified and peaceful Europe, with a lid on climate change, of course social and international injustice becomes more immediately urgent.

But we will all have to swallow tactics which may appear unpalatable in the short term.

 

This is exactly the point I wanted to make albeit done with more aplomb than I imagined.

BTW: I don't agree with Onionman's political opinion but he has argued the case well and I hope that he doesn't give up too, for what it is worth.

 

Ian Thumwood and Onionman, I love you both for your intellect, level of respect and the way you leave the debate open for others to join. read through your comments you are both united in the need to stop "No Deal," the difference is how to do it.

We have to stop "No Deal."

From my own perspective, Bunter Johnson deserves no support for the way he stabbed Theresa May in the back.

 

It's got to be 100% on stopping leave never mind the partisan egos. **** all the politicians for the prefect **** storm we're in

 

It’s over, isn’t it? I mean, short of revolution in the streets and an overthrow, what can be done to stop Johnson? He won’t allow a vote, and if there were a vote, he could just refuse to honor it. By the time it is all straightened out, Oct. 31 is long passed.

Even if the EU refused to honor England’s exit, Boris just stiffs them on the dues and the 39m or whatever, stops showing up to meetings and bans immigrants or whatever.

There is no practical way to stop it, or am I missing something?

 

If some Tories resign from the caucus/the DUP removes their backing, and a non-confidence vote topples the government, you could have a theoretical situation where the other parties go to the queen and say "oh hey Liz can we form a government", and Liz is all "yeah sure about time someone does", at which point they pass a two-year extension on Brexit or something and then dissolve Parliament for a snap election.

The possibility is vanishingly slim owing to the groups involved, but it is technically possible.

 

Don't give up Vin.............I might not agree with some of your opinions and comments but it does make interesting debate.
I get the opinion you see a conspiracy in almost everything people do or say. I don't say you are always wrong and can see from your prospective why you would consider so. Just remember others do clearly see things from different angles. As for Brexit it really doesn't matter which party had been in power they were on a hiding to nothing as the people are still divided almost down the middle. Remember in the debate before the referendum all political parties pretty well (with few exceptions) tried to persuade people to stay in the union.
I am not clever enough to suggest a solution and it would seem the political parties are of the same mind. I think we are in for an interesting couple of months.......

 

I am a Remainer. On reflection, Theresa May had secured a deal while not exactly ideal would have been a hell of a lot better than what we are facing. And I would be prepared to accept that as it secures a Brexit that covers the rights of EU citizens in the UK and likewise UK subjects in EU countries. However this Operation Yellowhammer is very sinister and Reading between the lines is gearing the UK for a worse case scenario. Johnson and his cohorts deserve absolutely no support and let´s hope he is ousted asap.

 

You have to realise that Johnson is such a charlatan that if he could be guaranteed in post for a decade if he revoked now he would do that in a heartbeat. Interesting hearing his sister Rachel on LBC yesterday. She obviously knows him well and feels some kind of familial commitment, but she knows also that he is only interested in one thing - Boris.

 

This is quite awful. Will our future, outside the EU and at the mercy of a government that doesn’t give a flying feck about employee rights, mean that even more people will be forced into self employment and be fined for taking time off if they can’t find someone to cover their shift, when visiting a hospital for health reasons?

 

Jeremy Corbyn is in contact/meeting opposition leaders to stop Brexit by legislation: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ers-no-deal-brexit-boris-johnson-live-updates

Labour has declared itself a Remain party. A little late in the day, but everything helps: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-the-party-of-remain-says-keir-starmer-brexit

 

I know this doesn´t apply to anyone here but does anyone believe the claptrap coming out of Johnson´s mouth.

https://www.conservatives.com/share...&utm_campaign=WR1452-the_nhs&utm_term=the_nhs

The laughable claim made being that "only the "Conservatives," can be trusted with the economy." I think he has forgotten how well Labour ran the economy from 1997 until 2010.

 

Depends how people define 'the economy'. Does it mean that the population is earning well and businesses are fairly healthy, or does it mean that the population is being ground down to the limit so that big businesses can do fine. By the main metric that suggests an economy is doing well - GDP, either scenario could be the case. Unfortunately, under Tories, 'generally' the ordinary working population do relatively worse, and the rich do better. Hence the inequality between the rich and the poor, which although is nowhere near USA levels, is the most lopsided amongst the European countries, and is only heading even more so.

So, no. In my opinion, Tories can't be trusted with the economy any more than any other political party, because the population as a whole do less well.
Aside from that, I have a strong feeling that occasionally surfaces, that the British Economy succeeds despite practically every misguided effort by whatever government is in power.

 

We can see evidence in this with many companies relocating their businesses to the Netherlands, Dublin, and the French hoping to cash in on an exodus of big financial companies. Add to that the Honda closure in Swindon as well as a retraction in other car companies, and you are right. Tories cannot be trusted with the economy.

 

Well, in this case, it is the direct policy of exiting the EU [another misguided policy] that is causing most of this. Of course, this has a horrible knock-on effect to secondary supply manufacturers.
Honda, may or may not, be closing due to Brexit. Possibly more due to a change in company direction on the power train choice in their vehicles.

 

Genuine butt-bin referendum seen in Denmark (excuse the language):

 

Honda decided they were leaving in 2011 when they knew they would end up with zero tariffs in Europe .........it was just a case of when, and that was this year.
Honda will always look after their motherland so if they need to keep the Japan plants busy other Genpos will lose orders to keep busy at home.
Nissan will be next.