The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Fri 31st May)

Yes because he was playing U23s when not playing with senior squad

 

Really? I think that's most unfair.

Bielsa played 10 of the u23s (12 if you include BPF & Roberts). That's more than any other manager has ever managed to do. I don't even think DoL played as many u23s in his whole tenure, and he's always had tremendous kudos for his record.

And there was another lot who whilst they never played, they got a lot of bench time to get used to the 'jump'.

For the record, I reckon the 10 is as follows:

Brown, Clarke, Davis, Halme, Huffer, Pearce, Oduor, Shackleton, Stevens, Temenuzhkov.

Oddly enough, I got this info from one site http://www.tablesleague.com/teams/leeds1/2018_2019/#players, yet I could have sworn that others played too, like Gotts, for instance. Perhaps I'm mistakenly thinking of pre-season games.

 

I think there’s middle ground here. He certainly did put trust in u23s and integrate them. However he puts a lot of faith in his first choice players, believes the understanding they have of his methods and of each other is important. I think towards the end of the season, he arguably put too much faith in this and was reluctant to rest weary legs with kids. But he sees therm in training though and we don’t.

Let me give a controversial example. Shackleton and foresaw. Shackleton is picked as an example of someone who should have been given more game time..and I wouldn’t argue with that. He finds space and makes good forward runs. I like him. BUT. Foresaw brings control, always there to receive a pass and retain possession (when he doesn’t fall on his arse and give a goal away). Shackleton replaced foreshaw at derby and made those forward runs and got deserved praise. However, we spent much of the last half hour at derby in the first leg on the back foot. When I think back to shaks other early season appearances that happened on occasion then. Maybe coincidence, he didn’t play that often... but is it possible we would have been less open against derby in the 2nd leg with foreshaw playing? In my view yes.

 

Possible, but more likely more complex (re. Derby). Tbh, pretty much blocked it out myself, so can't be specific.

What I will say is that I don't buy 'weary legs' and 'end of season' thing. I can't remember lack of effort being an issue in any of our games. I don't even think there was one game where we had less than 50% possession. And the end of season doesn't begin at Xmas! Certainly something went awry, and the best suggestion I've heard to date is behind the scenes personality clashes. But not fatigue at the end of season - the evidence suggests otherwise, right up to the last minute.

 

I struggle with the overuse stuff too.

Firstly, at 19 you're probably more capable of playing regularly and more eager than you are at 29.

Wayne spit Rooney, and many, many others. Could you see George Best being kept out of the first team till he was 23/24 because of his age? Even with today's physically demanding leagues? No.

Mollycoddling young players who are capable of playing first-team is the PC extension of the mustn't tackle, minimal-contact football we have to watch now, where everything is analysed to the Nth degree and compliance with insurance policies is the over-riding consideration which deprives youngsters of opportunities.

Am I too cynical?

 

Depends on the youngster, some are not fully developed at 17-19 and can easily get injured as a result. 26 is the recognised peak health and development wise, and the same as you wouldn't expect Hernandez to work as well physically as say Phillips the same goes for someone 17,although there are exceptions to every rule.

 

Bielsa over trained the whole squad. Even playing first teamers in u23s when a rest would have been beneficial. Sorry but he is obsessed with his methods. He reminds me of an autistic which i have experience of.
Everything he does during a game seems to seems to be to a plan. He cant think on the spur of the moment.
We need a bigger squad to force his hand.

 

Over-trained? So what would be the results of that, then? And when would it hit?

I think you've overlooked the fact that the team failed to get promotion, not individuals. And our team still had more energy & application at the end of our last game than Derby did. Or any other team, for that matter.

And yes, he was obsessed. Just like The Don. And Wilco. Seems to be ok if you win or a big mistake if you lose. Wonder if we'd hear these criticisms if we'd got promoted? Doubt it.

 

We all see games differently, I’ve got to say I don’t personally see what Forshaw brings to the team, we have so many better players ahead of him and I still can’t work out if his position or role in the team is supposed to be holding or attacking, either one I don’t feel he is very good at.

On another note I felt our fitness levels were better than the opposition from game one to game end, I agree Pablo looked a shadow of himself for the last few but we’d have all went ape if he’d been dropped. We now know Izzy lacking in the effort/fitness department was the reason he wasn’t selected, a bit like Saiz. At least players know nobody is too good for the team and don’t put the effort in, don’t play.

 

Good coaches dont make big mistakes.

 

I wasn’t really singing foreshaw’s praises... he’s been too hit and miss, I was making an observation of what he does and how the team performed with him and Shackleton in it.

 

Morning all. I think that early next season we will see several of the under 23s getting game time. We seem to have the most promising kids we have had for years. This is the only way to find out how good they are.

 

Yep. Look at Norman whiteside. Looked 26 at 16, looked and played like he was 36 at 26.

BPF was still growing at 19/20. There’s a big natural variation.

Here’s a thing to chuck out there. It’s not just about protecting the player it’s about the output of the player. There is a huge step up from u23s to championship. The pace is faster, and the stress levels are higher... some adapt better/quicker than others but there’s a footballing reason why they’re introduced gradually unless needs must.

 

I think it’s partly mental fatigue. We were the dominant side in almost every game last season. We stopped winning them through poorer decision making, lack of clinical edge.

Thing is it’s not one size fits all. Some players handle the rigours of a long season better than others.

Pablo has had 3 seasons, I don’t recall it so much in the middle season, but In season 1 he was awful at the end of it... a complete passenger, it was less dramatic this season but it happened again.

I’d have been fine with him being rested if we had someone to rest him for!

As a note to this, they monitor these guys daily so they know what their fitness levels are, but I don’t believe they monitor their mental health levels though... and maybe they should.

 

Think you've hit the nail on the head.

Physically fit, mentally exhausted.

 

Agreed Pablo had lost his nerve. Just before he was injured so had Alioski.

 

Mentally not up to it. Look at keogh for derby he had it in spades. But will we sign some with the bottle to see it through.

 

The mental fatigue was an issue with more than Pablo too. Unforced errors increased in latter end of season. All very fine being super fit physically and I guess that can be coached. Interestingly too golfers put a huge emphasis now on sports psychologists and regularly credit them after major wins. Are we lacking in that area I wonder or are some of our lads just to brittle to last a full season mentally

 

Easy bud some people might not like your opinions.

 

One of the problems playing U23's in first team on a regular basis is burnout, both physically and mentally.

Players burn energy physically and mentally, adrenalin helps to burn energy a lot more. Kids playing in first team for first time are playing on adrenalin, and the will to impress. Not only are they trying to impress the coach and other players, but also their parents and friends, thus leading to excessive energy burn.

While they've been taught / trained how to use their energy in U23 games, the first team is a whole different ball game. They come up against bigger, faster and more skillfull players, therefore the need to impress increases.

Clarke wasn't brought on for full games, he was blooded gradually, then he got sick, he wasn't really the same after that. He's not a well built player, he's a spindly player, and the illness seemed to take it out of him more than it would've a more beefy player.

It's easy to recognise the skills of some of the U23's, Clarke and Shackleton are typical examples, but a Cheetah can run fast, but only for short distances, where as a Horse can keep running over longer distances, only after he's been trained to do so, either by a trainer, or the Horses Mother / Father.

Bielsa's plan is to keep as many of the first team playing together for as many games as possible, this gives everyone the opportunity to learn each other's moves / passes and positioning. The loss of Saiz and the amount of injured players upset the applecart. I said earlier on that when you introduce U23's or loan players into squad, the apple cart is tipped, and it was tipped for most of the second half of season.

Harrison had a couple of good games, but he upset the applecart, Bamford, despite the goals he scored he upset the applecart, Clarke, as good as he is, he upset the applecart by trying to dribble around defenders all time instead of getting early crosses in as well, Harrison was same. Tyler Roberts, had one brilliant game but upset the applecart cos he couldn't fill Saiz's shoes.

One of the things we need to learn this coming season is, every game is played for 90+ minutes, and never take the lower teams, or any team for granted. Complacency breeds mistakes.