In fairness to Col, Yorkie, he has a point. If one takes a step back for a moment, ignoring whether one is a Remainer or a Brexiteer, surely any supporter of a democratic process can see the absurdity of the situation. We’ve had a referendum in which the electorate voted by a majority to leave the EU. This is an indisputable fact. Of course, ardent Remainers will say that any basis upon which the U.K. leaves the EU is a bad one. I respect that position. But to have the state of affairs that we now have, where parliament is effectively rejecting, or at least failing to agree, which route out of the EU we take is frankly absurd. Like most of the electorate I very much doubt many of the MPs have even bothered to read the proposals fully, or would be able to grasp the complexities if they did. But this is no reason to abandon the whole thing. Whether legally binding or not, the electorate was asked what they wanted and it is parliament’s duty to deliver this or step aside. My idiot conservative MP, Caroline Noakes, didn’t even vote last week for any of the options. How can that be representing any of her constituents. Maybe I’ll cut her some slack and assume she abstained because she didn’t understand it enough and/or was bored. She looks like a horse, so maybe that’s all one needs to know. Anyway, I digress. I’ve said before that the referendum was the wrong way to go about Brexit. What we should have had was a General Election with a party campaigning for withdrawal from the EU that the electorate could have chosen to vote in on a clear manifesto. They were called UKIP and were unelectable. To give us a referendum was, at least for people like me that want to leave the EU, the only chance we’d ever get to bring this about. So we took it. We’d never get such an opportunity again, would we? May’s folly was not to form a coalition. Leaving the EU is a serious business and any politician putting country before party or self would’ve done this, then called a GE after delivering it. Rather like Churchill after the war. We’d have got a Brexit by now had she done this. Adopting the Norway model would’ve been fairly easy too. Alternatively, we could’ve gone for a gradual Brexit, effectively leaving this month, but with most of the EU provisions intact, then gradually retreating from or tweaking them over the course of a number of years. This was wholly do-able and fairly damage-free and would’ve given both sides - the U.K. and the EU - time and space to consider each facet carefully. But, we are where we are. The unavoidable fact is that the majority of British people want to leave, so parliament has to make this happen. Or they can step aside.
Your final statement about the "unavoidable fact" that the majority want to leave, is destroyed by the polling average since 2016 putting Remain 8% ahead of Leave, on 54% to 46%, and practically every poll the last year giving Remain a small lead. Of the 46% supporting Leave, support for the many different varieties of Leave can only each attract smaller shares of that 46%. I support Remain but the Norway option you mention would make a less good but just about acceptable compromise for me.
Ok, I'll bite. You asked a brexiteer (presumably the ones on here) to explain what they want, given that THEY have voted against May's deal three times. I said that it isn't US voting the deal down, but the buffoons in parliament. Now, I realise that you're bound to come back, yet again, in your patronising teacher mode, asking if I need the question to be repeated, but honestly, I really don't!! Uber's post above (#31,737) pretty much sums up my position and I'm pretty sure that I've said some similar things during this ridiculously long thread, as my position has softened since the vote and I've said that the 48% should be considered, meaning a softer brexit, but one that still allows us to forge independent trade deals. I also replied to one of your supporters, Stroller, that I would, on balance, probably support May's deal. I hesitated because it's clearly not a great deal. Now, I could go on (and on) repeating all the old arguments and I'm sure you'll come back repeating all the old arguments, but all we do is go around in circles repeating the same thing. Some of us have slightly changed our position and some, like you, Stroller, Oslo and others seem completely entrenched in your views. Some on the leave side like Ellers and others also seem completely entrenched in their leave position. Stan is another who, as a remainer, has shifted his stance along the way a little, much to his credit. The ****ers in parliament on all sides are the ones to blame for where we are, along with the remain backing civil servants who undermined the whole process. But there you go, we're off down the same old road. I will say that the Tories are more to blame, being the ones in power and May has been just pathetically awful. I stated the day after the vote that the ruling elite would never let it happen and despite them all voting for article 50 and supporting leave in the last election I've been proved right. In my view it will take a very long time, if it ever happens at all for democracy to recover from this debacle. I'm sure this hasn't fulfilled your criteria for my answer to be allowed, but there you go.
The thing is, I just don't believe a second vote would solve anything. The polls were very much in favour of a remain win on the day of the vote too. If it was a fair question and not skewed in favour of remain designed to split the leave vote, I believe we'd have a very close result again one way or the other. At least you're now looking for compromise. Our idiot MPs could learn from that imo.
Yes of course I know about the Lisbon treaty which primarily lays out socials rights of the people. Yes it also gives a collective financial power to the Union in the global markets necessary imo to protect jobs over the large quantity of cheap Chinese imports for example. It’s there to protect people and businesses... wake up you will not stop a global world . Oh and we signed it also and somehow it was spun that The UK had lost some of its powers... should of joined in more with the functionality of the EU ... should of led the union but somehow we decided to whip up anti feeling with jokes about cheese and wine ... because we are still living in the bloody past Airbus ... bollocks to you there Yes Airbus are still investing small amounts in the U.K. nothing compared to the billions of investments at the heart of aeroplane and aerospace industries which as I have told you is in Toulouse which is France Fly over and see it for yourself it would take a few hours to show you the scale and size of operations You simply have no idea Sterling worth I agree at the moment looks to have little impact on the U.K. The sheep actually do however believe that everything hinges on this just like the obsession of the weather in the U.K. we live in a global world again if you think companies don’t move funds around it then best you catch up quick . On the subject of money then please study why financial companies are positioning themselves within the Euro zone for post Brexit Example yes just as a snapshot Barclays move to Dublin just with a press released statement of only £70 billion... look it up and study that your way you should find out it’s a lot more long term. Before Brexit London was still the financial capital and hub of the world ... its currently second and imo will fall quickly post Brexit and be overtaken in Europe ... the Americans who make all the rules up will abandon London ... it’s happening now NYC just got a lot stronger due to Brexit it’s been designed that way The EU political system involves voting it happens throughout Europe yet in the U.K. the entire thing is suppressed by a nation that has become so self obsessed Post Brexit warnings are clear for anyone who looks hard enough to see the potential damage With a divide so great and a mentality of ignorance then it’s very obvious to remain voters that it won’t be the same for our next generations. I respect you feel different but sorry you are wrong and tragically so. The fact that maybe you can’t see through insults and banter is your problem? Talk of cheese and wine and arrogance is nothing I am out either way and what you may see as winding up is totally true ... I still passionately care about people in the UK ... the next generations and see Brexiteers as negative thinkers If you want the U.K. to be great again then going it alone is completely mad especially with the current divide and completely useless politics... of course they will try and derail Brexit they know post Brexit they are accountable for the damage that is coming . My idea of post Brexit would be Allow the European thinkers (16m) to hold European status that allows them to vote and continue to have European rights ... that includes companies that see themselves as primarily European in their status change Ltd to SARL for example trade deal licenses for member companies located in the U.K. but hold their true alignment with the EU ... they would prosper whereas U.K. companies will fail ... that’s what has been happening anyway over the last 20 years Being based in the EU selling to the U.K. is where it’s at and it’s no secret that those who do not have this forward thinking business model will struggle
To be fair there are a lot of MP's, outside May and most of her Cabimet, and others, who are trying to find a compromise. See last week's indicative votes, and those scheduled for today. May repeatedly pushing and threatening her same rejected deal through 3 times now, and will seemingly do so again if she can, doesn't help that process at all. Nor does the whipping, the shouting at each other rather than debate, the political point scoring and political power ambitions of many.
I might well leave my bunker and run amok, blindly lashing out at anyone of any persuasion in my path, if we have another referendum on this. If our politicians are stupid enough to go down this route, and they probably are, they have to recognise that nothing has changed in the arguments about staying in or leaving the EU since 2016, and we’ve had that debate, in the most cretinous and divisive way possible. Any new referendum could only be between whatever deal Parliament gets behind and no deal, otherwise the first time round was pointless. Remain is not an option if we want ordinary voters to retain even the slimmest trust in the system. But without a functioning government and political system we can vote for absolutely anything and it won’t be delivered. ****wits.
Better to be 'patronising teacher' when someone does not answer a direct question in a debate given your initial position that it is the fault of die hard remainers that Brexit may not now happen than someone who just gets offensive and flounces off for which you have form. I do remember your previous posts good and bad hence the question given that I had thought your stance had softened. However none of you ever seem to remember what I have said as evidenced by your comments about me above. So let me repeat it again. I accepted the result of the Referendum. A second referendum for the sake of it would be wrong . However very few people even in the majority I believe read the manifestos or realised the consequences of doing so would be. Corbyn is however also to blame for this mess because he is playing party politics instead of working in the national interest to find a constructive solution. Finally in spite of my misgivings if a second Referendum were called I would exercise my democratic right and duty to try to reverse what I thought was a mistake first time around. If I lost again I would accept that verdict also. As I recall your stance came close to boycotting it until the result 3 years ago had been achieved. That is your prerogative. Given the catastrophic failure of leadership it is obvious that as soon as she lost her majority, self inflicted of course, a softer Brexit and a move towards consensus should have been the way forward. The Conservatives even with their DUP henchmen don't have the numbers to achieve a hard, or if you prefer, a pure Brexit. Even if you assume that the Conservative MPs are split 52-48. Since then further idiocy after idiocy from Theresa May have led to her losing all vestige of her authority. She has refused to behave honourably by resigning and calling an election, I wonder why? That is after all conventional and therefore in order to get something done and Brexit passed in some way, Parliament had no option but to take control. For now these are indicative votes only. I suspect the results will be a lot firmer today. However this is a process to be played out. If they do coalesce sufficiently to form a majority around one proposal they will do so and she then defies them at her peril. There is no precedent for a minority government which refuses to follow convention but cannot rule but it is the rule of law that the will of Parliament is supreme.
I would of voted leave 100% if I didn’t think it would damage our country. Europe still looks at the U.K. as a great place ... it is culture, greedy business aside Leaving Europe will make the U.K. much weaker and we are on the brink of doing so hence why greed has reacted. I would seriously love it if we could wave a magic wand and regain our power as a nation but it’s gone too far ... it’s irretrievable imo Good days long gone and only way forward is too make the U.K. a leading part of the EU ... in fact run the bloody thing ... this has been the root of bad culture imo... acceptance of decline To isolate ourselves with nothing but hope is a wrong step imo
What the actual ****? How on earth could I answer such an absurd question? Please, please, please look at the question you asked and explain to me how I could answer it? Actually, don't bother.
It is an unavoidable fact; it was put to the electorate and that’s what they voted for. The only polls since the referendum have been opinion polls, which we know to be unreliable. Chairman May was voted back in by the skin of her teeth at the last GE promising to deliver Brexit. If they ran the referendum again, presumably a narrow 8% gap, rather than a narrow 4% gap the other way, is sufficient to conclude that a third referendum wasn’t required? Last time I mentioned the Norway Option I believe you poo-pooed it, so thank you for a softening of your position on that.
I'd be happy enough with the Norway option too, but I think the Customs Union option is a more likely compromise because Norway entails free movement. I think a softer version of Brexit is the only way out of this impasse though, and, as you have pointed out in the past, would best reflect the closeness of the referendum result. I can see Parliament giving approval for a soft option, but will this government take any notice?
"May was voted back in by the skin at the last GE promising to deliver Brexit", closely beating Labour who also promised to deliver Brexit. (84% of the vote including UKIP). Remainers (Lib Dems/SNP/Greens) 11%.
Go back and read the “legalese” buried inside the Lisbon 2020 treaty, and even when people reply and answer you or engage in sensible conversation and debate you still insist in name calling and belittling. Take of your blue and yellow tinted glasses and ff’s open your eyes to what the Eu is attempting to do, don’t just quote the bits you think are relevant to your European dream and realise it is an underhanded bid to rule Europe as a one nation state controlled from Brussels with nations signing away sovereignty and all pecuniary control over their own finances and taxes, how they vote, what they drive, how they drive it, what they eat, what they grow, how they grow it, what they manufacture, where they manufacture and how they manufacture, but you cannot see this because you are a sheeple convinced the EU is all great and beneficial. Go read two books by Orwell, Animal farm and Big Brother. All they want are robots doing their will and I and 17.4 million other sensible people object to this totalitarianism, don’t go crying to come back when you suddenly realise that the grass is not greener on the other side, but if you’d like to thank me and the other 17.4 million for being smart enough to rise up and object to this totalitarian state they intend to deliver we might just accept your thanks but don’t bank on it Mr blue and yellow starred sheeple.
Thank you I am fully aware of those two books but believe it’s a big ask to make anyone compare them to the EU Yes the EU is big and extremely powerful but there is a big difference I do not believe you consider If there is in any way a problem with anyone single issue in the EU the people speak and do so in a very different way ... this no longer happens in the U.K. as we all seem to absorb the messages given to us by the media and the spin of U.K. politics We should agree that currently it’s a cock up in governance in the U.K. and also everyone seems to blame anyone or anything else ... such is the self obsession of current U.K. culture ... yes I do harp on about it but step back and have a good look at home before bringing in fiction and weak links ... at least we are on the same farm now You may even get my quotes of blue sheep which is a description of how to me conversatives act ... nothing more just banter If your vote was based on the idea that we are being corrupted by the evil EU I would look closer to home ? Global businesses on our doorstep are by far worse candidates for your ideas after all they control the governments anyway ... pick anyone of them and look into the legalese of what do re political contributions and you may think again imo As said I am out either way so soon I won’t need to care but I believe I still will and in advance if things turn tits up then I am programmed to follow hypocrisy back to the U.K. and state I’m all right jack while snapping up properties others can no longer afford ... it’s called modern life and we are all at it imo
