Off Topic Politics Thread

To be honest Corbyn is not the answer although in truth I am not sure who the hell I would like to govern us.

 

This is spot on. May strikes me as being a puppet at the end of strings being pulled by multiple people, and the number of u turns she has performed just further supports my view.
Unfortunately, I can’t see the Tories rushing into an election, for three big reasons.
The Brexit fiasco. Although it may be more beneficial for them to have an election before the true impact hits the public, there is a possibility that the doomsday predictions may actually happen in the first months of a no deal Brexit, making them unelectable. Whereas they will probably be hopeful that things might calm down within two years.
Tv Licence fees. If the BBC start charging over 75s, the Tories will need two years for their media friends to convince the affected group that they had nothing to do with this, although it was a breach of their election manifesto.
Pension Credits. They have moved the goalposts so now they can only be claimed when the second partner reaches pensionable age, and not the first one, as it is now. Also, they will now have to claim it via Universal Credit, which will set the amount a lot lower than it is now. I think the loss could be up to £7000 per year!!!
These last two are attacks on the age group that traditionally votes for the Tories, so they will need time to erase their part in short changing the OAPs, before risking a vote, IMO.
Hopefully they won’t forget or forgive.
I certainly will not.

 

As a tory all my adult life I agree with you 100%.

They have had one job since announcing the ill thought out Referendum. One job. Two and a half years later they still can't deliver it. And I never thought they should have asked for a referendum anyway.

I'm not sure I can bring myself to vote for any party to be honest - this whole Brexit fiasco has made me realise that putting the people first is a long way down the list of all of them.

...and breathe.

 

Whatever the outcome of the Brexit debacle this whole period has surely signified a sea change in British politics. Neither of the main parties will come out of this undamaged, and it could see a complete realignment in the same way as the repeal of the Corn Laws did nearly 200 years ago. On another note, we could end up losing both Scotland and Northern Ireland from the UK.

What a ****ing triumph!

 

While I agree with you, I think Labour can be absolved from any balme? Did Labour implement the referéndum? Did Labour issue Article 50? Was Corbyn at any time invited to partake in the Brexit talks? Was he consulted? Were any of the opposition parties consulted? The blame for the fiasco lies with the Tories 100%.

 

I entirely agree, but unfortunately facts like that tend to be swept under the carpet by the British media, in their desperate need to avoid having a radical Prime Minister like Corbyn elected. He is accused on a daily basis of holding talks with the IRA and Hammas, being anti-Semitic, and of being party to the crash of 2008. Tory MP’s trot out all this **** in Parliament where they can’t be accused of lying and the press duly lap it up. Sometimes it’s the other way round, where facts are distorted in the press and the Tory maniacs repeat it.

Just wait, if and when a General Election does happen, Theresa May might have been sidelined, but there’s no guarantee Corbyn won’t have been as well, and the Blairites will be back.

 

I think you would agree with me that your Blairites would be for the better than any shade of Tory Government. You are right about the Tory press re Corbyn. I was around in 1964 and weren't these very same rags running similar kinds of stories about Harold Wilson? He got in and then had a big win in 1966 to celebrate one of the happiest years in British History - England's World Cup victory, Southampton getting promotion to the top division for the first time in their history, and a Labour victory. Does life get any better?

As for Corbyn being sidelined, I don't think he will and if Labout MPs have the sense, they will have to bite the bullet regarding, Brexit and get behind him to win the next election. I have re Brexit, and am looking beyond. You have to.

 

I don’t think Labour can be absolved of the blame at all. Corbyn hasn’t done anything to stop this whole mess. A decent opposition would have actively gone after the Tories for their pissing about and could easily have pushed May into having to go back to the country. All he has done is sit back so he doesn’t have to make any decisions and can say “it wasn’t me” and “Labour would have done this better” when it’s all finished. I seriously hope the electorate kick both May (plus all her stupid sidekicks like Boris, Ree-Mogg, etc) out and give Corbyn a kick in the nuts so we actually can get politicians who can do the job instead of thinking only of themselves.
Sadly, I feel that the vast majority are so tired of all of this and don’t trust anyone, so they won’t vote and might let extremist elements in. I still feel strongly that voting should be compulsory in this country.

 

I know Corbyn isn’t everyone’ Cup of tea, and he pisses me off at times, but I don’t think labelling him as radical is correct. I think the media like to use it and are playing on the public misunderstanding the word, as it is often attached to members of terrorist groups.
The Labour manifesto is pretty much about returning things to how they once were, with a few tweaks.
Secure housing through increased social housing and rental reforms, a welfare state that is fit for purpose, safer communities through having more police, a working NHS, a better education service for all, not just those that buy it, improving employee rights and equalising society.
Yes it is changing many things, but I don’t think that repairing what the Conservatives have deliberately broken, is in any way, radical.
I think it was the Labour manifesto, as much as Corbynmania, that increased the Labour vote last time. And, if I am totally honest, I still don’t understand why anyone would vote against what they want to do, when you can see all the deliberate hurt and pain being inflicted on so many millions of people, by the Tories.

 

No I wouldn’t agree. Blair was more right-wing and less inclined to help working people than even Thatcher or Major were. He got in on the basis of ditching Clause 24 of the Labour Party constitution, regarding state ownership. He also did a deal with Murdoch and enlisted his support.

The tragedy is that if John Smith hadn’t died he would have become PM without resorting to changing the whole objective of the party.

 

That’s kind of the whole point. The huge gains of popularity Labour have made under Corbyn with that manifesto mean that he is singled out for attack by the whole of the establishment, who have vested interests in not allowing things to return to where they were 40 years ago, before Thatcher started dismantling the Welfare State and the NHS, and selling off council housing and so on and so on.

 

I think the issue we have is May thinks she is Thatcher.

Thatcher she is not.

Love her or hate (like most on here) her, Maggie would never have allowed this mess or bullying from the EU.

 

Unless I am mistaken, Labour put forward their view of how Brexit should be approached and May blanked them.
As was said when May finally invited opposition MPs, for talks, “The door was open but the mind was closed”.
As it happens the EU seemed to think that Labour’s plan was on the right tracks. Had May thought about what was best for the country, and not her party, she might have been prepared to compromise and the whole thing could have been wrapped up months ago.

 

We certainly aren’t being bullied by the EU. May has brought this mess upon the country singlehandedly, by sticking rigidly to her red lines and not listening to anyone outside her own cabinet. The EU negotiated within her frame of reference and she was happy with the deal she delivered to Parliament.

The problem was May, not the EU. In fact they have hinted that if May listened to Corbyn regarding the Customs Union, they could solve the backstop issue easily.

 

I'm wondering whether we're missing something here. Hasn't the Brexit fiasco demonstrated that we don't have the parliamentary sovereignty that we believe we have. Parliament has no power to frame policy. Labour's belated entry into the circus comes with proposals that would probably carry a majority in parliament. Why wouldn't it, as it's as close as we'll get to remaining as we're likely to get. But ultimately our unwritten constitution concentrates power in the hands of the PM and the cabinet.

Oh and can we stop comparing St Theresa to Maggie. I loathed Maggie with every fibre of my being, but she would haven't held that referendum. She'd have handbagged Farage because, despite all the Daily Mail lies, she believed in Europe and, I hate to admit, she stuck to principles. St Theresa is still looking for hers.

 

Corbyn said the day after the referendum to the cameras live on the telly that article 50 should be triggered immediately. I'm not sure May needed to ask "labour" to put their view forward seeing as at that time Corbyn's clique had a complete stranglehold on Labour policy. That has only changed since the last conference where Labour have altered some policies, which still Corbyn's clique are trying to avoid.

Like stated above. The whole house, including those who many think are luvverly because they agree with them, are to blame for playing games. Doesn;t matter what side of the fence they are on. Virtually all of them playing games to try and present to the public an argument that is false.

Whether that be those who are trying to push for remain but don't have the balls to admit that is what they are doing or the extreme end of the ERG (not many in reality) who would vote down anything that isn't a full on no deal, through to the Labour "6 tests" which is designed just to stop anything the Tories came up with good or bad. There isn't anyone in there that is telling the truth.

It is like a glass house with the glass blacked out. As if they are oblivious that the public can see and hear everything they say. They think it is all about what 650 MPs agree on. That might be the reality of how things end up being decided but no-one is being honest about anything.

As for the comment above suggesting May is a puppet being pulled from elsewhere it couldn't be further from the truth. In fact it would be better if that were true but the reality is that she thinks she is Thatcher, thinks she can control things but ties herself in knots because she says one thing to one group and then just does what she wanted anyway. The whole perception that she is being held to ransom by the ERG is laughable. If that were true then she would actually have changed something, not just said what they wanted to hear and then ignored them.

She is on her own, refuses to listen (and I mean more than just sit and wait till someone has said what they are saying) and then thinks she can plough on because "she's in charge."

The reason for all the u-turns (and there have been loads, not just Brexit) is because like the "dementia tax" and like "Chequers" she stuns her own cabinet by announcing her policy without them even knowing about it. And then of course she has to alter it. Also because of the reason I gave above "say what people want to hear but then just carry on anyway" she constantly looks like she is u-turning when in fact she isn't. Completely the opposite. she said something that would be a u-turn but then just does what she originally said before.

throughout the Brexit process her actions have not matched her words. she has constantly read speeches out that tell her party (and everyone else) one thing yet months later she has not done anything like that. She has been in trouble several times during the process and come out with another speech to steady the ship but totally ignored what she has said in the speech. Pure lies.

People like Cooper and Soubry should stop saying "we respect the result of the referendum." Just be honest, Say you don;t respect it and say you will fight to remain. Just stop lying. Same with fools like Francois and Bridgeon. Stop saying you will support a deal when you just want to leave with no deal. Be honest.

I can't wait for the next GE. I think it will be the most nail biting, nervously exciting GE of my lifetime. No idea how much damage to the LibLabCon there will be. No idea if there will be any damage with people just still voting for one of the big 3.

And of course no idea what fringe parties might come through or new parties emerge. It could be refreshing but equally it could be disastrous.

And all because politicians in the modern era could not learn that the public are becoming more and more aware (and annoyed) by all the lies.

they should just be honest, "I will vote against any Brexit." or "I will vote against anything that isn't no deal." We would have seen a swathe of politicians kicked out in the 2017 election if they were honest. Could have gone either way............

.........although on FPTP and leave (with honesty) the leave vote would have had much more of an impact. That's not to say it would have benefited the Tories because at the time Labour were still hedging their bets and telling their heartland seats they fully backed Brexit.

 

Not sure where you get that from. Maggie was hounded out by cabinet members who knew she was a barrier to Monetary Union as well as Maastricht which was in the pipeline. Lawson had already resigned because there was pressure (from within the cabinet) to enter the ERM and Hurd was pushing Thatcher to approve ERM membership.

She was pretty weakened by other things at the end but it was her resistance to the "European Project" that did for her in the end.

In her books she wrote “The concept of Europe has always, I suspect, lent itself to a large measure of humbug. Not just national interests, but a great array of group and class interests happily disguising themselves beneath the mantle of synthetic European idealism. Thus we find an almost religious reverence for Europe accompanied by a high degree of distinctly materialistic chicanery and corruption.”

She also wrote in the same book that the “world should wake up and stop the creation of a European superstate”.

So I'm not so sure she "wouldn't have held that referendum." If she were in power in 2014/15 you think she wouldn't? I think she would have forced it on the Maastricht Treaty had she been PM still.

I do agree she would have "handbagged Farage" though. I don't think Farage would have been a thing had it not been for Blair.

 

Best elections my lifetime / 1966 and the unbelievable 1997 result. At four o'clock in the morning I had tears of joy running down my face. I hope Labour can win by a similar margin but I fear it will be close as Corbyn is not Blair.

 

I didn’t loathe her but this is the point I was making earlier. No way would she have let us get into this state. That Lady ain’t for turning.

 

Even the dishonest and unprincipled media in Britain will struggle to place the blame for this Brexit disaster at Corbyn’s door.

That won’t stop them trying of course - the Mail and the Sun have already tried to blame him for everything from international terrorism to the collapse of the Venezuelan economy - but it must surely be evident to most sentient people that the ****show that is Brexit is the Conservative Party’s gift to our unfortunate country.