The effect of dead weight

Theoretical question

If you have 2 jockeys of equal ability in all respects but one weighs 8 stone and the other weighs 9 stone and they are riding two horses of identical ability over their optimum trip, course and going and they leave the gates on equal terms (both horse carrying 9 stone) and they both run to their true ability (let's say with a pacemaker to ensure an end to end gallop), how much advantage does the one with the 9 stone jockey have over the other one? Assume both horse have identical build and conformation

The next question would be how do you then take account of the build and conformation of each horse if they are different in those respects (in other words any dead weight will have more effect on a small/lightly framed horse than a strongly built horse. Also maybe a colt/horse can carry dead weight more easily than a filly/mare? And a mature horse will find it easier than an immature horse

Any views please

 

I think it is an impossible question to answer. Two horses may be the same size and weight, age, both colts, but they will move differently and have different strengths in different muscles. Also it depends where the dead weight is carried, the further the weight is away from the horses centre of gravity the heavier it will feel. One may mentally grind it out more than the other.
As a football coach we look at body shapes an example is say if a player has heavy knees say like a Rooney or Gerrard they are in most cases not quick and not going to make a winger but Rooney until around 25 was very quick, maybe his calfs or whatever were so strong to compensate for that.
There are just so many variables, a bit like if Frankel covers Midday and they get a 140 rated son, they get a second foal and it is only a 105 rated.
Thats my take anyways.

 

Depends if they've both emptied their bowels as well, six pound of weight there!

 

Agreed. I'm more than 15kg above my fighting weight and never more is it felt than when trying to ride my bike uphill.
As for dead weight and horses I recall Francome used to emphasise the negative effect dead weight would have as opposed to a heavier jockey and less dead weight when he was on Channel 4. He knew what he was on about.

 

And decent gloves hopefully. Good man Oddy. My problem with cycling these days is that if I'm out more than an hour it has to involve a cafe and cake. Therefore training tends to be neutral in terms of fat burning .

 

Spring chicken in cycling age, no reason you can't, only your mind

 

got to say though , that cycling is a great drug , frees the mind , helps keep the body in condition and hopefully gives you more life !

 

and when not cycling they are great for doing the washing up!

 

No phone or internet at present. Tree came down and took the cable with it. My son can't fix this one himself as it will need a tensioner. Can only get on from Amanda's for the time being

Good answer mal. Even more factors to take into account and just goes to confirm that a 7lb penalty to one horse may have a completely different effect to a 7lb penalty to another, making the phrase "should reverse form given the pull in weights" a bit of a nonsense. If only we could spot when and how much difference a penalty makes and when the penalty is dead weight or not, we would be a little bit wiser when looking at handicap races

Granted, this could all be nullified by how a race is run (eg a horse with a good turn of foot will have an advantage in a slowly run race and being held up for a late burst whereas a relentless galloper will be at a disadvantage; but have the advantage in a fast run race where it can blunt the finishing speed of the fast finishers

Not to mention, of course, horses prepared for a specific race

All in all, it would seem handicaps are a nightmare

 

I think the weight would be better distributed with the rider in the irons than having lead in the saddle.

 

Agreed Cyc, especially with regard to mal's point about the centre of gravity

 

Weight distribution, then? Great topic for discussion! Surely just like with any extra weight carried there will be some courses where it'll make a bigger difference than others. As Chan mentioned, he mostly feels that extra weight travelling uphill. If he were a horse on the straight Six at Goodwood it might only be a issue for the first furlong.

Maybe if it's distributed evenly or in the right areas it could even be a benefit, particularly going downhill, where weight can equal momentum.

 

Interesting thoughts. The 5f at Catterick is all down hill with the first furlong being quite steep. Should we be looking out for good bets over 5f at Catterick. C&D winners who are not only best on form but are carrying a big weight which could up the odds maybe?

 

That’s why the weight is in the saddle in the centre with the jockeys weight down the irons.

 

Yes but the jockey moves; the saddle doesn't

 

Yes but the weight is always going down the the irons

 

I don't understand that FP. eg going over jumps, if the weight is in the saddle I don't see how that always goes down through the irons