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The has Vettel thrown it away thread?

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by BrightLampShade, Oct 7, 2018.

  1. BrightLampShade

    BrightLampShade Well-Known Member
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    Going to need your help here as I'm doing this mostly from memory!

    Australia: A well timed safety car gifted Vettel the win, but given neither Vettel or Hamilton played a part in this I won't include this

    Bahrain: Hamilton had a unscheduled gearbox change, but it would be pure assumption to imagine a different result that day

    China: Max shunted him, I blame Max here, Vettel lost 6 points? (+6)

    Azerbaijan: The lockup, in my mind costing him the win, he lost 13 points and gifted Hamilton 7 (-20)

    Spain: Don't recall anything happening?

    Monaco: Nothing happening

    Canada: Nothing?

    France: Vettel shunted Bottas, he would have likely finished 3rd or 2nd, so say third, 5 points lost (-5) Also as a side effect, he cost Bottas 18 points, making him easier to choose as the number 2 driver in Merc

    Austria: Mercedes dnf, in my mind it would have finished Bottas, Ham, 1,2. Vettel messed up q2 giving himself a grid penalty and possibly costing himself the win, (-10), did not take advantage of a Hamilton dnf

    Britain: Hamilton had a poor start and then got removed by Kimi. Bit of good fortune for Vettel, but nothing out of the ordinary.

    Germany: That race! Threw it away and gifted Hamilton the win. Cost himself 25 points and gifted Hamilton a likely extra 10 (-35)

    Hungary: Nothing happening?

    Belgium: Nothing happening?

    Italy: Another incident that I blame him for, would Kimi have let him past, possibly? Vettel would have likely beaten Hamilton, who ended up winning here. So lets say that was Vettel's race to win, he lost 13 points, gave Hamilton 7 (-20)

    Singapore: Nothing happening? I feel like Vettel did something so Max got past again, but...?

    Russia: Do we say Vettel's lock up allowed Hamilton to close in and therefore pass him? Let's let that slide

    Japan: Team messed up quali, but they did get him out onto a dry track still, and Vettel then messed up his lap. Then the clash in the race. Worse case I'd say Vettel could have come 3rd, so cost himself 7 points? (-7)


    Add that all up and Vettel has lost 91 points to Hamilton in my eyes. Ferrari have been the faster car earlier this season, but now Mercedes are. Difference is Hamilton is making the most of his fastest car, Vettel didn't.

    What do people think of the maths, I was surprised when I added it all up, just imagine, Hamilton with the faster car reeling in Vettel at the end of the season, not to many points in it. What could have been.
     
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  2. El_Bando

    El_Bando Can't remember, where was I?
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    Should have won in Hungary as Ferrari had the fastest car. So this with Germany was the big own goal.

    Mercedes then came back from the summer break with a much faster car.
     
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  3. Big Ern

    Big Ern Lord, Master, Guru & Emperor

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    I think Kimi lost his contract for 2019 there.

    As to Ferrari having the fastest car, maybe for 1 or 2 races they have, and the gap has shrunk, but the Merc is still the class of the field.
     
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  4. Justjazz

    Justjazz Well-Known Member

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    I think the math is about right. Vettel has thrown this year away. He panics and can't control it, if he could he would have. So he should be 24 points in the lead if he was/is as good a racer as Lewis. I say racer as he is fast but has errors of judgement. I guess he wants it too much. He didn't make the transition to the current technology in his last year at Red Bull and perhaps that is a part of the issue, his driving style is continually compromised. .
     
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  5. Julius Caesar

    Julius Caesar Well-Known Member
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    2019 is a big year for Vettel.

    Leclerc is a big problem, and the risk of being outclassed by Lewis for the third time in a row is another.

    If he doesn't deliver again... might be time to start listing his name with Hill and Villeneuve rather than Prost.
     
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  6. Big Ern

    Big Ern Lord, Master, Guru & Emperor

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    If he had the fastest car you could say he's thrown it away, but he hasn't, the merc has been the class of the field for the vast majority of weekends and, like last season, the second half of the season has been all about Mercedes, all Vettel hasreally thrown away is the chance to come 2nd with a higher points tally than he will have. As to mistakes, if you have inferior machinery you have to push it that much more to just to be level, much like when Seb was at RBR and Hamilton was binning it.

    Graham, Damon, or Harry?
     
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  7. Julius Caesar

    Julius Caesar Well-Known Member
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    Either of the latter two. Or maybe Benny? You could certainly put the soundtrack over Seb's season.

    The last three weekends you have a point. For the season so far I'd give Ferrari the weekend on pace quite a lot. 9 times in 17 races at a quick count and both the Mercs blew up in one of the 8 races i gave them. If Mercedes dominate the last 4 as well it changes things a bit, but still, Vettel should be ahead now, not 70 points back.

    Perhaps mistakes do lead to more mistakes though. Taking more risks to try and make up for the previous losses ever since that 35 point swing at Hockenheim.
     
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  8. BrightLampShade

    BrightLampShade Well-Known Member
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    Up until the Singapore gp I think it's a bit disingenuous to say that Ferrari weren't the class of the field for the majority of weekends. The Ferrari engineers made a beast of a car, they just couldn't keep improving it like Mercedes and Red Bull. If things continue as they are then overall Mercedes will have been the better car over a season. But not by the points margin they're due to win by!
     
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  9. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    Is there also the factor that if Vettel hadn't made so many mistakes, Hamilton would also be under more pressure because either the gap would be closer, or he could be chasing down Vettel's lead?

    He does have some history of over-driving a car as well at times when he is behind, so has Vettel ensured that Hamilton can drive well within his limits and thus make less mistakes?


    All told, Vettel has thrown away the championship with bad judgement calls and errors. Vettel has lead the WDC at various points this year so has had the upper hand, but has let that slip away. Certain victories at Germany, Hungary, and Italy where he had the fastest car but either he or Ferrari cocked up has left the WDC out of reach barring a run of horrific luck for Hamilton.

    Ern, it's good to have you back, but to say that Merc has been the dominant car all year is nonsense. At least up to the Italian GP, the Ferrari has easily been a match for it, sometimes better, sometimes worse at various events. Since Italy the Merc has taken a step forwards, but Ferrari and Vettel have imploded under this pressure rather than rise to the challenge.
     
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  10. dhel

    dhel Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't Rosberg ahead during a few of their title fights, and wasn't Vettel a good few points ahead in this title fight? Did Hamilton overdrive the car? Even when Mercedes made crucial mistakes this year Hamilton drove sensibly. I think after Hamilton has had a very bad race or the car had problems he always comes back strong next race...Vettel and Max need to learn that races don't finish in the first corner.
     
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  11. Justjazz

    Justjazz Well-Known Member

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    I think Kimi lost his contract for other reasons. He could not sensibly ease off for Vettel in the first lap at Monza. I think the decision was more about Vettel hasn't delivered but is in contract so we need new blood. I suspect Ferrari will use LeClerc to judge Vettel by, that love affair being in doubt.
     
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  12. Big Ern

    Big Ern Lord, Master, Guru & Emperor

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    There's the key point, Vettel only led because of strategy mistakes, Lewis didn't need to overdrive the car because it was the best by nearly half a second And yes, the mediocre Rosberg was ahead in some of their title fights, and won 1 of them IIRC, because Hamilton made too many mistakes in the first half of the season, whilst at McLaren in a slightly slower car, he made enough mistakes for Button to comfortably beat him, I rate Button higher than Nico, but I wouldn't say his a top echelon driver either. Now he's in the fastest car with a number 2 he has the comfort of knowing he doesn't have to push the car beyond what it can do to be the fastest. Mercedes made a big step over the summer break again which has put him in the same comfort zone he had last season, he doesn't have to take the risks because he has the speed, Vettel doesn't have that luxury.
     
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  13. dhel

    dhel Well-Known Member

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    So you call car breakdown Hamilton mistakes? Wow....also...Hamilton did take risks when he did the overtake on Kimi to win a few races ago and also to overtake Vettel two races ago, didn't he?
     
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  14. happyal

    happyal Active Member

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    Has Vettel thrown it away? Or has Vettel carried the Ferrari?

    The question to ask is, if Vettel and Hamilton were in each other cars what would the WDC look like? I think the answer is that the Merc driver would have a huge lead as it's been the better car over the season so far.
     
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  15. dhel

    dhel Well-Known Member

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    Are you serious? I am sure if hamilton was in that Ferrari he would have probably won the title by now. Vettel threw away most of teh advantage Ferrari had over the field. I admit they messed him up big time in Japan Q3, but Vettel's position so many points down is mainly due to his own mistakes, not the car.
     
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  16. BrightLampShade

    BrightLampShade Well-Known Member
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    It's like the Oscars. Unless you release your film in a 2 month window no one remembers your film when the awards come up.

    A lot have forgotten quite how good the Ferrari was for large swathes of the first half of the season. Hamilton had some iffy races early on and Bottas has had some plain awful luck. Then with all the mistakes Vettel has made as referenced in my initial post, just imagine how far ahead Ferrari and Vettel could have been by Singapore. The race where Mercedes became the number 1 team for sure.
     
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  17. happyal

    happyal Active Member

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    Very serious, it's been proven that over the season the Merc has been the faster car. The simple fact that the Ferrari has been in the fight at all says to me that Vettel has out performed the car.

    Let's be honest, Lewis has never won in a car that shouldn't of been winning, he's never had to fight. I honestly don't think Lewis would be doing a better job that Vettel right now. But it's fun to speculate and I do respect your opinion that he would be, that's half the fun of F1 for me.
     
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  18. happyal

    happyal Active Member

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    I disagree that the Ferrari was so much better, you've been reading too much Benson. In my opinion the Merc and Ferrari were fairly even, with the Ferrari being slightly better at some places and the Merc being slightly better at others. If the Ferrari was so much better, Kimi would be 2nd on the grid and 2nd in the races, that just didn't happen.
     
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  19. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    He won races in the 2009 Macca. Nuff said. :)
     
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  20. BrightLampShade

    BrightLampShade Well-Known Member
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    But it has happened? Come on it wasn't that long ago, I fully accept that Mercedes is the class of the field now, but that's only the last few races. Just because they're fast now it doesn't mean it was always so.

    It's like looking at the 2009 season at the end and claiming Button won with the 4th best car.
     
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