Ok, let's nail this. You suggested that I was saying that most Leave voters were racist. I didn't and I wouldn't. My use of the phrase 'significant element' may have been too vague - let's say significant minority instead. But how big is 'significant'? Alright, I'll venture a figure. I would suggest that 10-20% of Leave voters were racists or xenophobes. My question is, would any Leave voters on here accept that? Not that significant in the scheme of things, but I am always struck by the outrage of some on here at any suggestion that racism played a part in the campaign and the vote.
Thought so. Not a single thing we ‘make’. One of these days you’ll have a valid argument and not just a stream of gibberish.
Do what you like. I’m still waiting for Ellers to come up with the great things he reckons we make that the EU can’t do without. I’m thinking we’ll be waiting a long, long time.
Stroller, you said that a lot of the racists and xenophobes are/were over 60.......and I disagree and think you are generalising. It’s one of those things that we will never agree on....you think you’re correct, I think you’re wrong. No harm done.
So the 52/48 debate rolls on What have we learnt There is a close divide of opinions The perfect storm infighting Neither side will yield because we are built that way Jesus said we would eat ourselves
There is an element of the Tory party, led by our estimable PM, that wants to honour the referendum vote whilst mitigating the damage that it will inevitably do to the country. There is a smaller - but perversely more powerful, it seems - element that doesn't care what damage is done so long as they get total separation from the enemy across the Channel. These elements together form what we laughably call our government. This government is plainly incapable of agreeing with itself, let alone securing a deal with the EU, but Parliament will not (in my view) allow us to crash out of the EU with no deal in place. There is no way to 'move on' other than for 'the people' to speak again. We now know what we didn't in 2016 - it's No Deal v No Brexit. A different question, no need for best of three.
Serious question....open to all. Does anyone see this divide that has been opened up in this country ever being healed ? I can’t personally ‘cos whichever side gets its way, the other is gonna feel aggrieved and bitter. Sad really
He didn’t ‘say it though, he screamed it, seemed unhinged. But anyway, I think that there are several elements of this that are telling. I quite agree that every instance of actual or debatable anti semitism in the Labour Party is seized upon by the media and possibly blown out of proportion, all to the joy of Corbyn’s enemies. Hardly surprising, they are leaving open goal after open goal on this. And this is ignoring the army of Corbyn supporting trolls who aren’t necessarily party members spewing out the real bile on social media, which I know he can’t control, but who send a message about the type of some of people he attracts. But the complete lack of control and discipline the Labour leadership has on this is important. They can’t stop their supporters going on and on about definitions, what is anti Israel and what is anti Semitic whatever, digging the hole ever deeper. Israel/Palestine is an important issue, but let’s face it a UK government of whatever type is not going to make a difference. Why is this so important to them when it’s not beyond passing interest and regret to the majority of the electorate (I’m guessing)? In my view it’s because Corbyn and his mates are much more interested and motivated by this type of protest politics, especially about perceived injustices overseas, than they are in the tedious grind of domestic policy. After all they’ve spent 40 years going on about it. He won’t simply say ‘shut up about this, we’ll adopt the full definition of anti semitism and chuck out anyone who steps out of line’ because he doesn’t want to, it would send a message he doesn’t want to send to certain sections of his party, he thinks it’s a foreign policy rather than an ethical issue, and doesn’t want to upset the strong Islamic support he has in some parts of the country. We know they will never really challenge the Tories on Brexit, because they are anti EU and want it to happen, but are delighted for the Tories to take the blame if things go tits up and have the hassle of doing the negotiation. But there are plenty of other issues where they could be roasting the Tories but are not - Labour had a very popular manifesto, when do we hear about their policies now? They are facing the weakest, most incompetent government I can remember and really not making them work (thankfully the Tories are pretty good at doing this themselves). Obviously I don’t like Corbyn and really don’t want a Corbyn government (I know, I’m truly ****ed come the next election) but I do think we need a proper opposition and we haven’t got one, we’ve got a bunch of people who were born to sit on the back benches Rebelling against their own party or be on platforms surrounded by people who think the same as them and protest about stuff while not being accountable for anything. I saw this lot (and Corbyn, at close quarters) in action in the early 80s and time hasn’t improved them. Sorry for the length of this response. No it won’t be healed, but the divide was there before the referendum and it’s not just about the EU. In fact I don’t think it’s a simple two way divide, it’s more of a fragmentation. It’s just all much more visible and nasty now. To be fair the divides exist in every other country as well, sometimes with different fault lines, but some are better at keeping a lid on it. When I’ve lived abroad in the past I’ve been conscious that societies have problems, but because they were their problems not my problems it was kind of academic. This isn’t. She really cocked it up though, didn’t she? When she became leader with a small but viable majority, she could have explicitly said that she wanted a Brexit which satisfies the referendum but didn’t punish the 48%, been honest enough to say that a complete break was simply not viable and gone on from there. Instead she chose to call me a ‘citizen of nowhere’, draw up unachievable red lines and pander to the extremists in her own party. She then made herself a hostage to them by ****ing up a general election and screwing up the parliamentary numbers, which is the source of her impotence. She really is a cluster.
Well said it the point I have been trying to make but not very well The divide is the thing that will muck up the UKs come back Probably heading for another falklands
They had elections to the constituency party of Bermondsey and Old Southwark last week I think. None (zero) of the nine Momentum candidates got in, despite all the new young party members. Admittedly Bermondsey might not be typical, it was Lib Dem for years, but perhaps the tide is turning.
I agree the split has always been there as it is in every country in Europe People in the south of France seriously dislike Parisians as I may have said before I had dog **** put on my car regularly when I lived in a different village I had a 75 plate on my French car Still that sorted when I caught the person who actually walked from the other side of the village to do it It was explained to me that still the passion still runs deep re WW2 towards the people who sold out to the Nazis When he realised I was English everything was cool apart from his ear as I knocked his earring straight out I reckon he was only 30 That was only 8 years ago My point is that we hold onto things and then influence generations after us The U.K. does the same and over Brexit I am sure it will only get worse ... post Brexit every success or failure will be amplified by each side ... it’s called blame culture a nasty sector of all cultures but worse in the U.K. that anywhere I have experienced Don’t agree? Our media is run entirely on it The answer for me move where I don’t understand it
Whilst I disagree that the split is total, it has always been there. The present politics (Brexit, Trump, UKIP etc) throws it into sharper focus for the media, enables the opinions of those extremists, and sadly ignores those in the centre, who are very likely to be the majority. The issue is that centrist policies don't make good headlines, and the extremes shout loudest, so it's easy to imagine a 50/50 (or 52/48) split, when the truth is far less black and white.
Bloody remoaner extremists There was a simple question requiring a simple answer Ever since all they have done is try to derail the wish of the majority of people that could be bothered to actually vote Apparently all leave voters were simple minded uneducated racist old aged coffin dodgeing bastards Should they change their minds then they will be OK though No wonder their is division when the other side are described as such
I take people as they are Naturally whatever views they hold Friendships stick or twist However I am brave enough to say I am guilty totally of lumping an opinion to a group or race into my own perception My mind afterwhich labels those opinions or races into a pigeon hole of do not likes This is why I know I am ill Currently I do not like anything Israel and it keeps coming back. I am certain this is because of where I live and how I soak in the influences or if I watch TV My mind is a piece of mush until I do some TM afterwhich I am calm because it shows me that I shouldn’t worry about the fluff We think we are clever and in control I am certainly not either
