I'd be happy to sign your petition for you but will an American's signature on this hold any weight? I am all for the truth to be told, by all governments......and sometimes by the **** refs too
Liverpool like Utd have fans from all over the world, the petition is valid no matter where you are from.
Ok I seem to have offended a few, and im sorry if I have done, its obviously a subject some feel very passionate about, which I clearly understand why.* Hillsbrough was a tragedy, a total tragedy and I would never dispute that, I feel extremely sorry for anyone involved or who lost a loved one. But my opinion on the reasons of why it happened won't change.* Back in the 80s most football clubs had a big hooligan eminent, Liverpool were one of the clubs who had a hooligan problem, along with many others, including Man Utd aswell. Most clubs had a minority of ****ers who were just out to cause trouble. Liverpool had a big hooligan problem, there fans behaviour in Europe even got the English clubs banned from Europe, I'm not saying they were the only ones, but they were one of the catalysts. Those fans thought they cod do what they wanted, they werent respectful human beings, they were total arse holes. At Hillsbrough, these type of fans showed up, without tickets, and thought **** it, we can do what we like and caused the turnstile operators so much grief that they felt so threatened that they couldn't stop them from getting in. Would Cricket or Rugby supporters go to a big game and behave in such a manner? Everyone knows they wouldn't. Football in the 80s in particular attracted total arseholes, every side had gangs of hooligans, and they basically thought they could do what they wanted.* The government were very naive to the potential risks this behaviour could cause, and unfortunately they tragically found out the hard way, the Government nay be slightly to blame, but the large majority of the blame lays firmly at the door of the minority of Liverpool fans, and the hooligan eliment in football back then.* Don't think I'm talking about all football supporters or all Liverpool fans, I'm talking about a minority of total arse holes that other clubs also had, that caused that tragedy. The government have obviously now realised the dangers of rowdy football crowds, but I don't see why the blame should rest at there door, because maybe if some football supporters where alot more civilised and respectful to the law, something like that wouldn't have happened. Like I said nothing like that would have ever happened at a Cricket or Rugby game.* Then we had the incident in Athens, you would think the supporters of Liverpool, more than any other would know what a stupid idea it is to try and force there way in without tickets. It just beggars belief how stupid those fans are, they may aswell have stuck 2 fingers up to those who lost there lives at Hillsbrough with behaviour like that, it was just disgraceful. If you want to slate me for my opinion then feel free, but that's how I see it, and you won't change my mind *
Adding to that, I just realy hate the way Liverpool fans try to lay the full blame at the door of the government, rather than realising that some of there own fans were in the wrong that day, the government were not the ones pushing through the gates, without tickets. Some people in Liverpooll realy need to get a grip. Your fans where partly responsible, and anyone who argues otherwise is deluding themselves
Shergar I'm not getting into this with you, but just wanted to point out that you are contradicting yourself. First of all you are not offending anyone this is something you know a little about but not anywhere near enough about. You say that you wont change your mind? Well that is a stupid statement, anyone can change their mind based on facts and people that don't are the deluded and ignorant ones. "we can do what we like and caused the turnstile operators so much grief that they felt so threatened that they couldn't stop them from getting in" This had nothing to do with the turnstiles and to suggest it does shows a lack of knowledge for such bold statements, it also had little if anything to do with the hooligan element, that is a different discussion.
And on another point to King Shergar, children, a father and son and a pregnant women were killed, none of them hooligans. All that the families of all the people killed want is the truth and that is what the petition is about.
Luvgonzo....Why were people without tickets entering the ground? If I went to the cinema didn't by a ticket and sat down to watch a film, would I be breaking the law? Those Liverpool fans who turned up without tickets, and ebtered the ground were breaking the law, no ifs of buts, they didn't have tickets, and where therefore tresspassing. There actions killed many innocent people. Where have I said all the victims were hooligans? I haven't said any of them were, some may have been the majority of them probably weren't, we are talking a minority here, do you understand that, i am not talking generally. Those who entered the ground without tickets were bracking the law, and surely people must be able to understand that a large majority of the blame lays at there door. It's a nasty subject, but I dint see why Liverpool even as a city has deluded, and brainwashed people into believing the Government were entirely to blame, it's ridiculous. The fans who entered that ground without a ticket are the route cause, and they were Liverpool supporters. Just out of interest what did you think of the way Liverpool supporters tried to charge there way into the Champions Legue final in Athens. Did you not find that sickening, considering those who lost there life at Hillsbrough, due to similar events
The possibility of fans attempting to gain entry without tickets or with forgeries contributing to the disaster was also suggested. South Yorkshire Police also suggested that the late arrival of fans amounted to a conspiracy in order to gain entry without tickets. However, analysis of the electronic monitoring system, Health and Safety Executive analysis and eyewitness accounts showed that the total number of people who had already entered the Leppings Lane End was far below the capacity of the stand. Additionally, eye witness reports suggested that tickets were easily available on the day of the game, and that tickets for the Leppings Lane End were still on sale from Anfield until the day before the game. The report dismissed the conspiracy theory.
Raaaul.....So you realy believe no Liverpool supporters entered Hillsbrough without tickets? You realy expect me or anyone else to believe that
I personally don't care who and or what caused. I know it was a tragedy, and I will treat it as such. I would have signed the petition, but I'm not a UK resident so it won't let me. I signed it in spirit?!
That doesn't alter the fact that Hillsborough was a massive failure on the part of the authorities to control the crowd and maintained safety. As the Taylor report stated, yes some Liverpool fans were drunk and yes some got in without tickets. But that happens at every football match, particularly in the 1980s, and so can't have been the fundamental cause of what happened. As you stated yourself, all clubs had (and still do have) fans like that who care about no one but themselves. But the police, stewards and other authorities should be able to control these types of situations - if they can't then they shouldn't let the game go ahead. The key question that needs to be answered, and hopefully will be answered by this petition, is why Hillsborough ended up with so many deaths when other games at the time saw similar, and often even higher, levels of overcrowding, drinking and hooliganism but no deaths or serious injuries.
Do you really believe fans of all clubs who were unfortunate not to get a ticket for big games through the ballot or matchbook/vouchers/season tickets etc dont travel to the venue in the hope of getting one on the day and would'nt have done the same that day?. As Raaaul has already pointed out ticketless fans being the cause was investigated and disproved,The the major roadworks on the 62,The FA's decision to give Forest the biggest end of the ground,The west yorkshire police policy of having supporters entering through the Leppings lane turnstiles and funnled down a tunnel 8ft wide onto the middle section of the three sectioned terrace with access to the left and right being impossible until the officer with the say so on openning the gates in the fences decides the middle section is overcrowded all played a major part in what happened. Add to that the police on the terrace were'nt in direct communication with the mounted police outside so had no way of knowing they needed to open the left and right gates so they did'nt,and we all know the result of that,The police command centre was inside the ground with a clear view of the terrace getting overcrowded and they were in contact with officers inside and outside the ground and could have prevented what happened. After Hillsborough many fans of other clubs(United included)told of being in the Leppings Lane central terrace for previous FA Cup Semi-Finals and being crushed and the police only opening the gates to ease the overcrowding on the last minute. If your going to make a comment back it up mate. JFT96.
Without wanting to cause offence I think there is plenty of blame to go around. Systemic failures in ticketing and policing. Personal responsibility on the part of individual stewards, police, and fans. We've all been in a crowd situation where the people at the back can't see what's going on at the front and keep pushing to get through anyway - the Newcastle boys posted about the situation at the station after their game the other night that could have had tragic consequences. I'm not convinced finding out what Thatcher and her cronies had to say about it around the cabinet table is going to add anything new or help the families.
I dont take any offence at your comments mate because you spoke as a football supporter. The thing to bare in mind about Thatcher's cabinet meetings in the aftermath is that it might/or might not prove there was a cover up at government level and/or there was a police cover up which the government of the day were happy to take on board and readily blame Liverpool supporters for the deaths. Also bare in mind Thatcher's being the PM at the time of Heysel and her "war" with militant labour in Liverpool and you can see there is every chance that unjust bias was shown against Liverpool fans,also the government blocked the exact time of death of the 96 victims being individual,instead they were all recorded as dying at 3.02pm when evidence from medical staff at the scene and in hospitals in the aftermath said different,the families are entitled to know if their loved ones were still alive after 3.02pm and if they were was enough done to save them. Theres plenty of skeletons in Thatchers closet and if Hillsborough is one of them it should be outed before she dies.
While I don't believe that any information should be withheld, it will raise as many questions as it answers. There will always be additional details that are vague or not clear, things that could have been done better, but in terms of football stadia, ticketing, and policing I think all the lessons have been learned - making sure something like this never happens again is as much as we can hope for. It's the nature of these campaigns for truth to take on a life of their own, where the quest actually has more meaning than the goal. People always want to find some meaning to tragedy but in the end there are no explanations other than the obvious - in this case a poorly managed crowd, late for various reasons, pushing through a single entrance into an area not designed to deal with it. At some point, if the wounds are ever going to heal - the search for meaning has to transfer from looking at their deaths, to celebrating their lives.
What is the truth then? Do you know Liverpool fans and people of Liverpool know the truth or do they want these documents released so they can discover the truth?
Didn't Lawro say that it doesn't matter what is in the report, even if it's found that Liverpool fans are to blame or have some responsibility. What matters is that the victims' families get the truth which they deserve. I think it's a disgrace that they have been in the dark for this long. Whatever my feelings are towards Liverpool FC doesn't (always) relate to Liverpudlians so I shall be signing the petition.
stanlied a good few of our boys over the years and wrecked the facilities in the away end at OT last year.A few bad apples? Petition affects all fans? Yes to the last one coz it helped them to get rid of standing areas thus bumping prices up out of the reach of most working class fans.As I said earlier Im old school and would"nt lift a finger to help the granny stabbing scouse bastards!
