Christ your head must have been mashed to have missed that one. But just remember, you can call me anything you like but never a Tory! Have a good evening, pal.
I did state I could be wrong...........but you missed that and jumped at the negative..........never mind im just glad you aint a tory like tony blair peace out
Ignoring the last few posts on a misunderstanding, which I do all the time, reacting before realising I read things wrong................ .............Catalonia eh? Discuss.............. What will the "globalists" that talk about "freedom of people" do? Personally, I think Spain should give them a "legal" referendum and hope that it comes out in favour of remain. After all, it is not for anyone but Catalonians to decide what Catalonians want. Doesn't matter if they will be worse off. Didn't matter whether Scots would be worse off. Didn't matter whether the Brits would be worse off. It is about people being able to decide their own future and should not be a dictation from those above on the basis of a balance sheet. The whole concept of a "global world" with borders "melting away" is disintegrating in front of the "globalists" eyes..... .....I'm half way through another bottle of Port. Exciting times. People are finding their own identities again across the world and putting 2 fingers up to the big moneymen. please log in to view this image
The rise of nationalism in Europe Imps? Where have we seen that before, and what could possibly go wrong? It's now up to the Spanish government to show something they have not exhibited so far in this saga - restraint, reason, and imagination. Catalonia btw, unlike Scotland, never has been an independant country, & it's very unlikely it ever will be. But the nationalist sentiment being stoked up by Puigdemont and his cronies has created a pretty poisonous discourse. It's all very sad. There is nothing noble about nationalism - it's a sentiment that is never far from racism, and which serves only to divide people at a time when they should be coming together.
The world has moved on since 1945. Germany and the Uk certainly have. War between major nations is done via trade these days and mostly by how much money each country can get from other country's profits. Nothing has really changed. Big countries suck the money in rather than send the tanks across the land. I agree with you r.e. Catalonia never being a nation however is it for you or I or the EU to decide what Catalonians want? And my point r.e. borders is that globalism was supposed to be all about removing borders. The result is that people with money are pushing new borders because they want some of the action rather than it all disappearing over the borders
I think this may have been expressed on here before but I'll give it a go... There are natural borders that have defined languages and to a lesser extent dialect. Over the years and more importantly generations these 'borders' shift, leaving potential debate/argument/war. However, some borders remain obvious.... Seas, oceans, mountain ranges and deserts being the obvious ones. Early attempts at globalization, i.e. colonialism eventually lead to straight line borders drawn by officials on behalf of their political masters leading to many conflicts in the modern world. Catalonia has it's language and culture, yet it's borders are less obvious. I don't know my European history well enough to fully understand why this should be, but I do understand how threatening to the status quo this is, and consequently the EU's reticence.
I'm wondering if any direct descendents of the Plantagenets are wondering if they can get the seat of Castile that John of Gaunt felt he had a claim on? Maybe we can offer to Catlonia that they can join the UK via our Aragon connections? (yes I am joking.)
http://news.sky.com/story/catalan-l...ndence-on-hold-for-talks-with-madrid-11075455 Carles Puigdemont signs a document declaring Catalonia's independence, but delays implementation to allow for talks with Madrid. The way Spain dealt with the referendum was inexcusable but the referendum was illegal and only 43% managed to vote. In view of this I don't see how he thinks he has a mandate. I don't think even the SNP would expect this to work. The Madrid response is unlikely to be a surprise to anyone. Let's hope everyone stays calm.
He knows he does not have a mandate and is basically offering Spain the chance to let them have a legal referendum. How do you know only 43% managed to vote when many were stopped from voting and many ballot boxes were removed? 43% is just the vote that could be counted after all of that. Your SNP comment is a bit strange. You know full well as I do that if this was the Scottish referendum with the same circumstance, response as this Catalan referendum the SNP would be declaring a victory.
I'm not sure Puigdemont actually knows what he wants - I suspect that he has something in common with Nogel Farage and Boris Johnson, who both looked utterly shell shocked after the UK referendum. Agitating to manipulate populist opinion was one thing; showing real vision and leadership, quite another. This is the real problem with nationalists of all persuasions imo - they define themselves in contrast to "the other", & without that perceived enemy, they have nowhere to go and nothing to offer. On the other hand, I am all for devolving power away from central authorities and towards local decision making - but within a broader framework of co-operation and mutual trust.
Don't know about that - the SNP embody a very British form of nationalism. One that is essentially law abiding. They waited decades to get their referendum, & when they did, it was held with the consent of the British, Scottish and English legal aparatus. Even so, snd regardless of the result, it appears to have left a legacy of bitterness and rancour that may linger for generations.
Puigdemont is the leader of the Catalan government. How can you (and all remainers) keep on banging on about Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage who pushed a campaign yet were never in a position to action the result? This constant request for a "plan" from people who were not in power is a stupidity. You can ask them their opinion on what they think the plan should be but the reality is that they are not in power and never in a position to action a plan. It was a ridiculous stance from day 1. The PM and cabinet of the time should have had a plan (for both eventualities) yet we constantly hear how the leave campaign are to blame. In the Catalan scenario, Puigdemont is the leader of the Catalan government (like Sturgeon is in Scotland) so he actually does have power to implement "his plan." With the election being "illegal" of course that means that "the state" can oppose and stop that plan being implemented but otherwise...........what is the point of devoloved governments if they have no power to implement their people's will? They should hold a legal referendum. There is other way to solve this now. The Spanish government already saw to that by trying to prevent a devolved government from trying to "be a government." This is not going to go away now and resisting it further is only going to make things worse.
The thing that the sudden fans of Catalonia miss in their frenzied and evangelical enthusiasm for freedom is that independence would affect the whole of Spain, not just Catalonia. The new Catalonian supporters (who a couple of years ago probably couldn't have found it on a map) are happy to see the breakup of a country whose constitution is very strong indeed on unity of the country. They are happy to discard the precious rights of Spain's other citizens to the dogs; who gives even half a toss? They're just sheeple blinded by the Illuminati, the bankers, the Rothschilds, the Bilderberg group or whoever it is these days. I should stress, I don't have a dog in this particular fight but it's odd that the Mail, the Express and everywhere the alt-right coagulates online is suddenly full of people who are suspiciously keen to break things up as much as they can. I'd almost suggest there was a conspiracy backed by a power in Eastern Europe trying to cause ructions, but that'd be lunatic. Vin
Don't think the Catalans would agree this is something new,been rumbling for a long time,however the online army have an opinion on most things it would seem.Ged a job.(not you Archers).
In case of doubt I'm not suggesting the Catalans are the new supporters of this - it's been rumbling for years. I'm referring to the swivel-eyed loons outside Spain who are taken in by all the balls spouted on the subject of Freedom (FREEDOM!) and who think simple, populist, smash-it-and-it'll-be-better solutions are better than hard-thought, technical, boring, long-termism. Vin
I see you amended your post after I had already answered it and added quite a bit. With regards to the SNP - basically what Archers said. The SNP would of course declare a victory but that wouldn't make it legal or binding if they had had an illegal referendum. With regards to the 43% - read the link I posted. I don't understand your comment as you say ballot boxes were removed and people were stopped from voting therefore my comment of 'managed to vote' is explained by your comment. At the end of the day the referendum was illegal. If they want a legal referendum then they have to try to get the constitution changed,
surely there`s no secret that the catalan people feel they don't have a connection with the Madrid based politics its the same with most Welshmen who feel they have no connections with the London based oligarchy. nationalism gives identity, so someone would have 2 take it over the red line (human morals) for it 2 be called fascism
