Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
rangercol said:
Yeah yeah we mustn't upset peace loving muslims at all costs (costs like those innocent children blown to bits in Manchester).
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No one is saying we shouldn't upset the peace loving muslims.

What people are saying is that 1 muslim is a terrorist, all muslims are terrorist.

That would be like one white Hitler, all whites are hitlers.

1 right wing racist Andreas Breitveik who killed many kids, all you right wing hating muslims are Andreas Breitvik.

There's a middle ground.
 
I heard some interesting stuff on the radio yesterday and today with people trying to understand how a British boy can end up murdering innocents (and killing himself) in a terrorist attack. It tallied with some stuff I had exposure to when I taught motorcycling in the East End - I taught a lot of brown-skinned kids who were 2nd generation Brits with one parent (or both) from "back home". Many of them had grown up with white men of a certain age telling them "you Pakis should go back where you came from". Most of them laughed and shrugged it off, but not all of them.

Now imagine this happening to a vulnerable boy who might have lost a parent, or with problems at school, or maybe getting caught doing something illegal and going to jail. . These kids can be groomed (just like *****s groom children) - shown affection and friendship by people who then get them to accept being exploited by joining their exciting gang of people who want to change society so that true Muslims (and not those weak 'pretend' Muslims who want to integrate) can live their lives as God intended... See how it might go?

I don't see how stigmatising all Muslims can do anything other than accelerate the conversion rate, but I don't have a solution, either. How do you educate kids so they all laugh when someone says "the world is flat", or "martyrs get to live in paradise" or "science is bunkum and God created the world in 7 days".
 
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Good post Beth but the Muslim community where I'm from choose to isolate themselves with plenty of 'no go area's.' I'm personally fed up and have no wishes to embrace them or embrace their ideas. My bro as I've said before is a deputy head and the Muslim males at his school are proud of these and similar atrocities. I for one am totally fed up especially knowing one of the deceased in the Manchester bombings. The scary aspect about it all is that the ##nt was born in the UK!!!! And there are thousands more just like him. I couldn't care less about the 'racist card' at this present time.
 
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bobmid said:
Good post Beth but the Muslim community where I'm from choose to isolate themselves with plenty of 'no go area's.' I'm personally fed up and have no wishes to embrace them or embrace their ideas. My bro as I've said before is a deputy head and the Muslim males at his school are proud of these and similar atrocities. I for one am totally fed up especially knowing one of the deceased in the Manchester bombings. The scary aspect about it all is that the ##nt was born in the UK!!!! And there are thousands more just like him. I couldn't care less about the 'racist card' at this present time.
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Absolutely spot on bob. But the hand wringing liberals on here won't listen and won't believe your version of how things might be.
I've just been accused of being a far right Muslim hater on here. The hysteria against people like you and me is several decibels higher than the dismay for the dead children from the appeasers.
I am truly sick of the way we pussy foot around this issue for fear of offending.
And by the way, those of you already playing the racism card are way off. This has nothing to do with race, creed, colour or nationality and everything to do with extremism of a religious faith.
 
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rangercol said:
Absolutely spot on bob. But the hand wringing liberals on here won't listen and won't believe your version of how things might be.
I've just been accused of being a far right Muslim hater on here. The hysteria against people like you and me is several decibels higher than the dismay for the dead children from the appeasers.
I am truly sick of the way we pussy foot around this issue for fear of offending.
And by the way, those of you already playing the racism card are way off. This has nothing to do with race, creed, colour or nationality and everything to do with extremism of a religious faith.
Click to expand...
Driving through Bradford yesterday evening was sickening with gangs of young males cheering and waving flags!!!
Integrate them........no thanks
 
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I don't normally comment on non-football stuff but this debate needs to be heard at every opportunity if we are ever to address the problem. Both points of view aired here have some validity: yes, demonising all Muslims will only make things much worse but we cannot be so PC and timid to leave things as they are if we are to benefit from living in mixed communities. The only solution in the long term is education and, as a result rather than as a dictat, the continued reduction and eventual eradication of all religion. This is not a short term project by any means - we in the West have the luxury of 500 years of post-Renaissance thinking to help us get to where we are today and yet in living memory we still blow each other up in places such as Ireland, the Balkans and elsewhere over what are fundamentally religious divisions - but we must continue down this path. We can make a start by closing all religious schools and certainly by not funding more as the government seems intent on doing so with its free schools initiative (religious schools couldn't be less 'free' of course for those being indoctrinated). This is not outlawing religion (much as I'd like to, it just doesn't work) but allowing liberality and science to continue to eat into the nonsense that it peddles. Muslim clerics and other religious leaders will cry foul of course but what rational argument can there be for brainwashing the very young with ideology?
 
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rangercol said:
Absolutely spot on bob. But the hand wringing liberals on here won't listen and won't believe your version of how things might be.
I've just been accused of being a far right Muslim hater on here. The hysteria against people like you and me is several decibels higher than the dismay for the dead children from the appeasers.
I am truly sick of the way we pussy foot around this issue for fear of offending.
And by the way, those of you already playing the racism card are way off. This has nothing to do with race, creed, colour or nationality and everything to do with extremism of a religious faith.
Click to expand...

I hope you aren't talking about me because i just everything isn't black and white after your super glib comment "Yeah yeah we mustn't upset peace loving muslims at all costs (costs like those innocent children blown to bits in Manchester)."

We shouldn't be pussy footing around and anyone who is highly likely to be a suspect should be sent away (especially those that have come back and known to have been part of ISIS but are being let back in).


QPAAAAAGH said:
I don't normally comment on non-football stuff but this debate needs to be heard at every opportunity if we are ever to address the problem. Both points of view aired here have some validity: yes, demonising all Muslims will only make things much worse but we cannot be so PC and timid to leave things as they are if we are to benefit from living in mixed communities. The only solution in the long term is education and, as a result rather than as a dictat, the continued reduction and eventual eradication of all religion. This is not a short term project by any means - we in the West have the luxury of 500 years of post-Renaissance thinking to help us get to where we are today and yet in living memory we still blow each other up in places such as Ireland, the Balkans and elsewhere over what are fundamentally religious divisions - but we must continue down this path. We can make a start by closing all religious schools and certainly by not funding more as the government seems intent on doing so with its free schools initiative (religious schools couldn't be less 'free' of course for those being indoctrinated). This is not outlawing religion (much as I'd like to, it just doesn't work) but allowing liberality and science to continue to eat into the nonsense that it peddles. Muslim clerics and other religious leaders will cry foul of course but what rational argument can there be for brainwashing the very young with ideology?
Click to expand...

You hit some of this right on the head. We should be closing down these religious free schools... Frankly it's ridiculous that we have allowed this with them following a totally different educations.

Likewise we should sack the human rights off totally when its obvious that someone is pushing out hate speech. Those cocks who come out to cheer for dead british army soldiers and the likes of abu hamza, we shouldn't need to have to go through a whole procedure to send them to anywhere but the UK.
 
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bobmid said:
Good post Beth but the Muslim community where I'm from choose to isolate themselves with plenty of 'no go area's.' I'm personally fed up and have no wishes to embrace them or embrace their ideas. My bro as I've said before is a deputy head and the Muslim males at his school are proud of these and similar atrocities. I for one am totally fed up especially knowing one of the deceased in the Manchester bombings. The scary aspect about it all is that the ##nt was born in the UK!!!! And there are thousands more just like him. I couldn't care less about the 'racist card' at this present time.
Click to expand...

Yes Bobmid you are right...Just like in Belfast during the troubles...and how did peace come about there...by talking and intregrating, and not isolating or making martyrs ..
Still condeming the bombers and killers too though...no pussy footing about. It will take a lot of change to make it happen...but respect for those who deserve respect is a start.


You are also right about religion....because nearly all wars of the last two decades have been religious (The Troubles, Shia vs Shiite, The Balkan atrocities, Palestine...).
I too would get rid of ALL religious schools, but religion is a hard thing to remove from a nations ethos.
A religious upbringing is something I was blessedly never given....and feel it has ruined many many lives of ALL faiths

I am sure we would dtill find something else to fight about..
 
rangercol said:
Absolutely spot on bob. But the hand wringing liberals on here won't listen and won't believe your version of how things might be.
I've just been accused of being a far right Muslim hater on here. The hysteria against people like you and me is several decibels higher than the dismay for the dead children from the appeasers.
I am truly sick of the way we pussy foot around this issue for fear of offending.
And by the way, those of you already playing the racism card are way off. This has nothing to do with race, creed, colour or nationality and everything to do with extremism of a religious faith.
Click to expand...


Sorry Col totally incorrect... when I heard the plea from the poor mother looking for her child I cried...I cried each time I saw it..I am crying now writing about it

I am not crying or even thinking about you with any raised emotion Col
 
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QPAAAAAGH said:
I don't normally comment on non-football stuff but this debate needs to be heard at every opportunity if we are ever to address the problem. Both points of view aired here have some validity: yes, demonising all Muslims will only make things much worse but we cannot be so PC and timid to leave things as they are if we are to benefit from living in mixed communities. The only solution in the long term is education and, as a result rather than as a dictat, the continued reduction and eventual eradication of all religion. This is not a short term project by any means - we in the West have the luxury of 500 years of post-Renaissance thinking to help us get to where we are today and yet in living memory we still blow each other up in places such as Ireland, the Balkans and elsewhere over what are fundamentally religious divisions - but we must continue down this path. We can make a start by closing all religious schools and certainly by not funding more as the government seems intent on doing so with its free schools initiative (religious schools couldn't be less 'free' of course for those being indoctrinated). This is not outlawing religion (much as I'd like to, it just doesn't work) but allowing liberality and science to continue to eat into the nonsense that it peddles. Muslim clerics and other religious leaders will cry foul of course but what rational argument can there be for brainwashing the very young with ideology?
Click to expand...

Good post. I'm an atheist, so I'd have no problem with making all schools secular. I'd also make sure there were lessons on being a citizen that included explaining how religions work and what has been done in their name. What would you do about those 'after hours' or "Saturday/Sunday" schools? People with strong religious views can't seem to avoid wanting to bring up their kids to share their views and go the extra mile to make sure it happens, don't they?

In the UK, the Church of England has a political position and is part of the state. How do you address that?

The rational argument for brainwashing the very young with religion is, of course, it often works. That's how you get more people to join. There's a lot of older people who seem to find religion as part of sorting out their personal problems, it seems. (Back to my theme of vulnerable people being adopted into a new "family" that accepts them and befriends them when they are at their lowest point. If the people doing the befriending are benign, as most are, then fine. Some are manipulative and definitely not fine. That's how you make British boys into killers.)
 
bobmid said:
Driving through Bradford yesterday evening was sickening with gangs of young males cheering and waving flags!!!
Integrate them........no thanks
Click to expand...

There are decent muslims of course, but in these self-created ghetto's there is genuine hate of the infidels. If they can celebrate when children are massacred, they will never become decent human beings because it's not in their DNA.
 
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GoldhawkRd said:
There are decent muslims of course, but in these self-created ghetto's there is genuine hate of the infidels. If they can celebrate when children are massacred, they will never become decent human beings because it's not in their DNA.
Click to expand...
And these are all kids born here which to me is the real concern.
 
GoldhawkRd said:
There are decent muslims of course, but in these self-created ghetto's there is genuine hate of the infidels. If they can celebrate when children are massacred, they will never become decent human beings because it's not in their DNA.
Click to expand...

Oh dear, Goldie. In your own way, you can be quite the fundamentalist manipulator yourself. Suggesting the people Bobmid saw in Bradford can never be decent human beings because of their genetic makeup is just so, so wrong. Unless you can prove it. Can you?

If you can get the world to accept that a group of people are not redeemable because of their DNA, what's the next step, I wonder?

No question that it is totally despicable behaviour, though. Surely that sort of thing is illegal as a hate crime? As Bobmid just wrote, they are British-born. Yet they prefer to identify with points of view delivered by manipulative mullahs with twisted agendas. It isn't looking like it will end easily or end well.
 
TheBigDipper said:
Oh dear, Goldie. In your own way, you can be quite the fundamentalist manipulator yourself. Suggesting the people Bobmid saw in Bradford can never be decent human beings because of their genetic makeup is just so, so wrong. Unless you can prove it. Can you?

If you can get the world to accept that a group of people are not redeemable because of their DNA, what's the next step, I wonder?

No question that it is totally despicable behaviour, though. Surely that sort of thing is illegal as a hate crime? As Bobmid just wrote, they are British-born. Yet they prefer to identify with points of view delivered by manipulative mullahs with twisted agendas. It isn't looking like it will end easily or end well.
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I liked Goldies post... but i read it as the people who are cheering over such a tragedy are the scum and the not in their DNA you are taking too literally. It's not in the DNA of the people cheering, not the not in the DNA of muslims (who aren't even a race).

Sort of like how DNA is used to describe footballers sometimes. If i'm wrong i will take that back but i'm interpreting goldie as in the people cheering.
 
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TheBigDipper said:
Oh dear, Goldie. In your own way, you can be quite the fundamentalist manipulator yourself. Suggesting the people Bobmid saw in Bradford can never be decent human beings because of their genetic makeup is just so, so wrong. Unless you can prove it. Can you?

If you can get the world to accept that a group of people are not redeemable because of their DNA, what's the next step, I wonder?

No question that it is totally despicable behaviour, though. Surely that sort of thing is illegal as a hate crime? As Bobmid just wrote, they are British-born. Yet they prefer to identify with points of view delivered by manipulative mullahs with twisted agendas. It isn't looking like it will end easily or end well.
Click to expand...

In terms of civilised behaviour, these child-killer celebrationists are centuries behind us. Have a look at how women are treated in Pakistan. Gen up on honour killings, and revenge attacks on women. When did British people ever behave like that, at least Anno Domini? It's no wonder Muslim ****philes prey on young British girls. It's an inferior culture, and Islam is a medieval faith. Face it, BD, instead of whipping yourself until the blood runs.

The hope? Muslims like Maajid Nawaz whose moral compass is well set, despite being a bleeding liberal
 
BobbyD said:
I liked Goldies post... but i read it as the people who are cheering over such a tragedy are the scum and the not in their DNA you are taking too literally. It's not in the DNA of the people cheering, not the not in the DNA of muslims (who aren't even a race).

Sort of like how DNA is used to describe footballers sometimes. If i'm wrong i will take that back but i'm interpreting goldie as in the people cheering.
Click to expand...

Right, Bobby. I wasn't using DNA literally. I'm not a scientist. See my answer to BD as to the rest
 
GoldhawkRd said:
In terms of civilised behaviour, these child-killer celebrationists are centuries behind us. Have a look at how women are treated in Pakistan. Gen up on honour killings, and revenge attacks on women. When did British people ever behave like that, at least Anno Domini? It's no wonder Muslim ****philes prey on young British girls. It's an inferior culture, and Islam is a medieval faith. Face it, BD, instead of whipping yourself until the blood runs.

The hope? Muslims like Maajid Nawaz whose moral compass is well set, despite being a bleeding liberal
Click to expand...

Culture is not DNA, is it? I'm happy to discuss culture - and the evils of cultural superiority beliefs - once you've proven or given up on the DNA slant...
 
GoldhawkRd said:
In terms of civilised behaviour, these child-killer celebrationists are centuries behind us. Have a look at how women are treated in Pakistan. Gen up on honour killings, and revenge attacks on women. When did British people ever behave like that, at least Anno Domini? It's no wonder Muslim ****philes prey on young British girls. It's an inferior culture, and Islam is a medieval faith. Face it, BD, instead of whipping yourself until the blood runs.

The hope? Muslims like Maajid Nawaz whose moral compass is well set, despite being a bleeding liberal
Click to expand...

Going to have to slightly disagree with this. Firstly, the revenge attacks on women, honour killings, thats a culture from muslims abroad (mainly india,pakistan etc and even then half of them are hindus) and at most i reckon the ones raised in britain in a very traditional family. We barely seen honour and revenge attacks in the UK or at the very least it's certainly not reported.

Then you only need to look around 30/40/50 years ago. Homosexuality was illegal, domestic violence was normal to many or at least not spoken about and we see loads of revenge/acid attacks nowadays from jealous boyfriends that aren't from muslims (see the nightclub attack from TOWIE, the black guy on katie piper etc, Raoul Moat the steroid eating cockhead)

In fact what i describe above can probably be used to describe a load of eastern european countries who are massively behind liberally.
 
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