Off Topic David Moyes

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He signed a Striker for free. Big Vic is 28 and as good as anyone else we could have signed for 10m. It was great business, we could have spent 20m on a Striker and he could be injured now.

Pappy is one of the worst players I have ever seen. Love and McNair are both prospects and could yet turn out to be great signings.

My gripe is 7m for Mvila would have been much better than 13m for Ndong.

Let's face it injuries to Catts, Kirchoff and Pickford have hit us hard.
 
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Lostinvegas said:
He signed a Striker for free. Big Vic is 28 and as good as anyone else we could have signed for 10m. It was great business, we could have spent 20m on a Striker and he could be injured now.

Pappy is one of the worst players I have ever seen. Love and McNair are both prospects and could yet turn out to be great signings.

My gripe is 7m for Mvila would have been much better than 13m for Ndong.

Let's face it injuries to Catts, Kirchoff and Pickford have hit us hard.
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I would rather he'd spent the Love/McNair money on M'Vila. We needed immediate returns, not prospects. End of last season we had a decent first choice midfield three that just needed one player to be added to improve it- N'Dong could and should have been that player. He, alongside M'Vila and Kirchhoff would have elevated that 3 from adequate to decent.
Moyes can't necessarily be blamed for injuries but his transfer decisions and his tactical choices are off key at best.
 
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The Norton Cat said:
I would rather he'd spent the Love/McNair money on M'Vila. We needed immediate returns, not prospects. End of last season we had a decent first choice midfield three that just needed one player to be added to improve it- N'Dong could and should have been that player. He, alongside M'Vila and Kirchhoff would have elevated that 3 from adequate to decent.
Moyes can't necessarily be blamed for injuries but his transfer decisions and his tactical choices are off key at best.
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We all wanted M'Vila here and, had we forced it, he would now have been here (He asked to be removed from his pre-contract agreement)

We all think it was as easy as "pay the £money they were asking" but, in all honesty, we have no idea - I believe there was much more to blame than a simple "Pay it or leave it" scenario - granted making as many assumptions as you are but that's all they are, assumptions from both sides.

His tactics last night were spot on - we defended high up the field and did it very well. Had the 2 best chances of the game bar none and came under pressure second half when we got tired which is expected against a team that move the ball like Spurs do.

As for his signings - which one's aren't the right people? Love & McNair both look decent enough players (McNair was starting to look a good buy before his injury). Djilobodji and N'Dong would've been here whether Moyes was or not. Djilobodji and Kone looked OK together. O'Shea and Kone looked great together last night. Djilobodji and O'She together doesn't work!! Of course having Pickford behind them helps IMO.

I think, from around 8th or 9th down, to have the injury list we have (where 4 or 5 would likely start ahead of what we have available to play) there are very few managers in that bottom 12 would be much better off than we are. I'm talking the injury list we've had for months not just have now as I know Hull etc are having trouble with that - think selling Snodgrass will relegate them TBH.
 
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marcusblackcat said:
We all wanted M'Vila here and, had we forced it, he would now have been here (He asked to be removed from his pre-contract agreement)

We all think it was as easy as "pay the £money they were asking" but, in all honesty, we have no idea - I believe there was much more to blame than a simple "Pay it or leave it" scenario - granted making as many assumptions as you are but that's all they are, assumptions from both sides.

His tactics last night were spot on - we defended high up the field and did it very well. Had the 2 best chances of the game bar none and came under pressure second half when we got tired which is expected against a team that move the ball like Spurs do.

As for his signings - which one's aren't the right people? Love & McNair both look decent enough players (McNair was starting to look a good buy before his injury). Djilobodji and N'Dong would've been here whether Moyes was or not. Djilobodji and Kone looked OK together. O'Shea and Kone looked great together last night. Djilobodji and O'She together doesn't work!! Of course having Pickford behind them helps IMO.

I think, from around 8th or 9th down, to have the injury list we have (where 4 or 5 would likely start ahead of what we have available to play) there are very few managers in that bottom 12 would be much better off than we are. I'm talking the injury list we've had for months not just have now as I know Hull etc are having trouble with that - think selling Snodgrass will relegate them TBH.
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Djilobodji and N'Dong would have been here regardless who was in charge?

I must have missed the bit when we employed a director of football.
 
marcusblackcat said:
We all wanted M'Vila here and, had we forced it, he would now have been here (He asked to be removed from his pre-contract agreement)

We all think it was as easy as "pay the £money they were asking" but, in all honesty, we have no idea - I believe there was much more to blame than a simple "Pay it or leave it" scenario - granted making as many assumptions as you are but that's all they are, assumptions from both sides.

His tactics last night were spot on - we defended high up the field and did it very well. Had the 2 best chances of the game bar none and came under pressure second half when we got tired which is expected against a team that move the ball like Spurs do.

As for his signings - which one's aren't the right people? Love & McNair both look decent enough players (McNair was starting to look a good buy before his injury). Djilobodji and N'Dong would've been here whether Moyes was or not. Djilobodji and Kone looked OK together. O'Shea and Kone looked great together last night. Djilobodji and O'She together doesn't work!! Of course having Pickford behind them helps IMO.

I think, from around 8th or 9th down, to have the injury list we have (where 4 or 5 would likely start ahead of what we have available to play) there are very few managers in that bottom 12 would be much better off than we are. I'm talking the injury list we've had for months not just have now as I know Hull etc are having trouble with that - think selling Snodgrass will relegate them TBH.
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M'Vila- why do the pro-Moyes brigade trot out the pre-contract agreement like its the answer to something? Moyes stated he thought there was better value out there. In short he wanted to bring his own players in rather than spend the money on retaining an established part of our first team. Like I said, we needed an immediate impact not prospects in the shape of Love and McNair (yes, I agree that McNair has looked good but he wasn't what was needed at the time). The pre-contract disaster just suggests to me that Moyes preferred to spend our limited budget on his favourites than on the player that pretty much everyone else could see was what we actually needed.

His other transfer business- Januzaj- need I say more? His attitude towards Lens and Khazri has substantially weakened one of the strongest elements of our squad and yet again he's prioritised his favourites over established members of our first team. I like N'Dong and Djilobodji but like you say- Allardyce signings. Anichebe- excellent signing. The rest of his signings, all decent standard players in themselves, but none have adequately addressed the issues that needed addressing at the start of this season.

His tactics- yes, last night his tactics were spot on. How do you explain the rest of the season from about the Middlesbrough game on? Injuries and limited budgets don't stop him setting his team up to close down space and harry the opposition.

Injuries- if better transfer business had been done at the start of the season only Watmore, Kirchhoff, and Pickford should have been anywhere near our first team and there would have been adequate cover for the Borini and Watmore injuries.

The current situation isn't all of his making but, in my opinion (of course) he's done nothing to alleviate the problems he's inherited or been lumbered with and surely that has to be the main aim of a manager in his position.
 
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The Norton Cat said:
M'Vila- why do the pro-Moyes brigade trot out the pre-contract agreement like its the answer to something? Moyes stated he thought there was better value out there. In short he wanted to bring his own players in rather than spend the money on retaining an established part of our first team. Like I said, we needed an immediate impact not prospects in the shape of Love and McNair (yes, I agree that McNair has looked good but he wasn't what was needed at the time). The pre-contract disaster just suggests to me that Moyes preferred to spend our limited budget on his favourites than on the player that pretty much everyone else could see was what we actually needed.

His other transfer business- Januzaj- need I say more? His attitude towards Lens and Khazri has substantially weakened one of the strongest elements of our squad and yet again he's prioritised his favourites over established members of our first team. I like N'Dong and Djilobodji but like you say- Allardyce signings. Anichebe- excellent signing. The rest of his signings, all decent standard players in themselves, but none have adequately addressed the issues that needed addressing at the start of this season.

His tactics- yes, last night his tactics were spot on. How do you explain the rest of the season from about the Middlesbrough game on? Injuries and limited budgets don't stop him setting his team up to close down space and harry the opposition.

Injuries- if better transfer business had been done at the start of the season only Watmore, Kirchhoff, and Pickford should have been anywhere near our first team and there would have been adequate cover for the Borini and Watmore injuries.

The current situation isn't all of his making but, in my opinion (of course) he's done nothing to alleviate the problems he's inherited or been lumbered with and surely that has to be the main aim of a manager in his position.
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Why do the anti moyes brigade (reverse what you said up there). As I said, nobody actually knows - you give your opinion because you think things should've been done differently, I give mine because I think there was more to it - we may both be utterly miles away from the reality but we'll never know.

One thing for certain, he had a pre contract, he admitted this and he thanked the club for allowing him not to go through with it. If M'Vila had signed in August, then, in November/december, changed his mind like he did anyhow, where would we be? another hypothetical scenario we can't know the answer to but a nevertheless relevant one. Januzaj is a player who has ability but no drive. I was excited when we signed him - most on here were.

You mention Khazri again like it's obvious - there's more to "him not playing" than we think IMO as well - think he's not putting in the graft in training - and, to be honest, when he has played this season he's looked no better or worse than Januzaj for the most part so I don;t see the argument for him playing!

Lens is another one none of us will know the full truth about. Everything is down to opinions and assumptions - you assume it's Moyes fault Khazri isn't playing without seemingly putting any blame on the player - I'm willing to believe there's more to it as someone who looks for the logic in situations.

No idea how we could address the situations - Bony was all but signed when he got a phone call from Stoke offering wages we couldn't Currently dream of. There were 4 others at least which would've addressed those positions but they turned us down (No idea who they were but it's come from Marco Gabbiadini who is very close to the club) and all would've signed in the summer had they gone through so he HAS tried to address but hasn't been able to. We tried for Manolo Gabbiadini, Jay Rodriguez and Ulloa - all of which would've addressed some part of the issues we have and couldn't get them

Allardyce had the same attitude towards Lens BTW so I'm firmly going to lay the blame with the player on that one
 
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Safc83 said:
Djilobodji and N'Dong would have been here regardless who was in charge?

I must have missed the bit when we employed a director of football.
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Just from what I've heard - both deals seemed to be well on the way well before Moyes signed his contract. Allardyce was still here when we were going for both players
 
marcusblackcat said:
Just from what I've heard - both deals seemed to be well on the way well before Moyes signed his contract. Allardyce was still here when we were going for both players
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That's fair enough, mate.

Moyes was here for 6 weeks before N'Dong came, though. He had time to stop the transfer and pick his own players, like he did with M'Vila by saying he wanted to have a look about to see if better value was about first.

If it is true, and I'm yet to see a scrap of hard evidence, then Moyes comes across as weak. Why would he want to use the previous managers list of targets instead of going after his own men?

Moyes and Allardyce, are completely different managers, who are better suited to managing certain players. Either way, it doesn't put Moyes in a good light.
 
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Safc83 said:
That's fair enough, mate.

Moyes was here for 6 weeks before N'Dong came, though. He had time to stop the transfer and pick his own players, like he did with M'Vila by saying he wanted to have a look about to see if better value was about first.

If it is true, and I'm yet to see a scrap of hard evidence, then Moyes comes across as weak. Why would he want to use the previous managers list of targets instead of going after his own men?

Moyes and Allardyce, are completely different managers, who are better suited to managing certain players. Either way, it doesn't put Moyes in a good light.
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I'd be on this side of the fence... weak is a word I'd use.

When he was here, at a club who were just crowned champions and had CL football to offer, he missed out on targets left, right and centre, targets we had all the money in the world to buy.

I think he's partially to blame for the mess you're in, he can't be totally absolved of blame when he's so uninspiring as a human being. Far from it being his fault if you go down though, I think Short has done far too much damage before DM turned up.
 
We don't know the in's and out's of it all, I suspect wages were the issue. McNair and Love together will probably not even be on 1/2 what Mvila wanted. I also suspect this is the same for N'dong ie he is on much less than Mvila wanted..

The jury is out on Moyes for me. I think at times he looks tactically very good. Last night is an example of that. Bringing Vic in once he was fit was working really well. Then there are the negatives like him being unable to get a decent game out of Januzai and his apparent fall out with Khazri.

As for players we will have to see. Retaining Defoe and Kone is a big plus. Vic was a great bit of business. Deneyer a decent signing on loan and I think Love and Mcnair will come good.

Injuries to: Vic, Pickford, Watmore, Catts and Kirchoff plus losing N'dong and Kone to the ACN means we had 7 of our first 11 missing, plus Gooch and Mcnair are also injured. If you took Zlatan, de gea, Pogba, Bailly, Mata, Herrera, Mkhitaryan, Rashford and Darmian out of the Man utd team I think they would be struggling too.
 
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marcusblackcat said:
Why do the anti moyes brigade (reverse what you said up there). As I said, nobody actually knows - you give your opinion because you think things should've been done differently, I give mine because I think there was more to it - we may both be utterly miles away from the reality but we'll never know.

One thing for certain, he had a pre contract, he admitted this and he thanked the club for allowing him not to go through with it. If M'Vila had signed in August, then, in November/december, changed his mind like he did anyhow, where would we be? another hypothetical scenario we can't know the answer to but a nevertheless relevant one. Januzaj is a player who has ability but no drive. I was excited when we signed him - most on here were.

You mention Khazri again like it's obvious - there's more to "him not playing" than we think IMO as well - think he's not putting in the graft in training - and, to be honest, when he has played this season he's looked no better or worse than Januzaj for the most part so I don;t see the argument for him playing!

Lens is another one none of us will know the full truth about. Everything is down to opinions and assumptions - you assume it's Moyes fault Khazri isn't playing without seemingly putting any blame on the player - I'm willing to believe there's more to it as someone who looks for the logic in situations.

No idea how we could address the situations - Bony was all but signed when he got a phone call from Stoke offering wages we couldn't Currently dream of. There were 4 others at least which would've addressed those positions but they turned us down (No idea who they were but it's come from Marco Gabbiadini who is very close to the club) and all would've signed in the summer had they gone through so he HAS tried to address but hasn't been able to. We tried for Manolo Gabbiadini, Jay Rodriguez and Ulloa - all of which would've addressed some part of the issues we have and couldn't get them

Allardyce had the same attitude towards Lens BTW so I'm firmly going to lay the blame with the player on that one
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Khazri was woeful in some games last season, Moyes doesn't rate him, Id like to see him get a chance in the Number 10 role as Borini and Januzai haven't cut it there.
 
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The Norton Cat said:
I would rather he'd spent the Love/McNair money on M'Vila. We needed immediate returns, not prospects. End of last season we had a decent first choice midfield three that just needed one player to be added to improve it- N'Dong could and should have been that player. He, alongside M'Vila and Kirchhoff would have elevated that 3 from adequate to decent.
Moyes can't necessarily be blamed for injuries but his transfer decisions and his tactical choices are off key at best.
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Problem is the free for those two was bearly half what they wanted for Kazan. I would rather we got him instead of them, but it was unworkable. We had him in Jan for free had we been prepared to pay him more. Don't know if we were right or not to not offer him more money because I don't what we offered or his demands.

Ultimately I think the problem with us is because we're riddled in debt we want everything on the cheap and handed on a plate. It's a stance which isn't getting us very far in squad recruitment.
 
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marcusblackcat said:
Why do the anti moyes brigade (reverse what you said up there). As I said, nobody actually knows - you give your opinion because you think things should've been done differently, I give mine because I think there was more to it - we may both be utterly miles away from the reality but we'll never know.

One thing for certain, he had a pre contract, he admitted this and he thanked the club for allowing him not to go through with it. If M'Vila had signed in August, then, in November/december, changed his mind like he did anyhow, where would we be? another hypothetical scenario we can't know the answer to but a nevertheless relevant one. Januzaj is a player who has ability but no drive. I was excited when we signed him - most on here were.

You mention Khazri again like it's obvious - there's more to "him not playing" than we think IMO as well - think he's not putting in the graft in training - and, to be honest, when he has played this season he's looked no better or worse than Januzaj for the most part so I don;t see the argument for him playing!

Lens is another one none of us will know the full truth about. Everything is down to opinions and assumptions - you assume it's Moyes fault Khazri isn't playing without seemingly putting any blame on the player - I'm willing to believe there's more to it as someone who looks for the logic in situations.

No idea how we could address the situations - Bony was all but signed when he got a phone call from Stoke offering wages we couldn't Currently dream of. There were 4 others at least which would've addressed those positions but they turned us down (No idea who they were but it's come from Marco Gabbiadini who is very close to the club) and all would've signed in the summer had they gone through so he HAS tried to address but hasn't been able to. We tried for Manolo Gabbiadini, Jay Rodriguez and Ulloa - all of which would've addressed some part of the issues we have and couldn't get them

Allardyce had the same attitude towards Lens BTW so I'm firmly going to lay the blame with the player on that one
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I totally agree that there is probably more to it than meets than eye. How about Khazri being annoyed or his confidence knocked that having played a critical role in what was looking like a team with potential to kick on his place is taken by an ineffectual waster who was an unmitigated disaster for the club he played for last season? Moyes has form for preferring his favourites over what's already at a club (see, I'm applying evidence and therefore logic) which is what makes me think he has at least some part to play in Khazri's poor showing so far.

I didn't agree with Allardyce about Lens and I was hoping that Moyes would give the player chance. However, Moyes has gone on record as saying that his decision on Lens was based on someone else's opinion, despite Lens looking good during the appearances he made early this season. Logic would dictate that a Dutch international deserved to be given a chance by the manager of a club such as ours.

Maybe M'Vila changed his mind because, by not bringing him in August, his club had the chance to convince him to stay. See, I can make up irrelevant hypotheses too.

If you think that enough effort has been put in to addressing what was required for the first team then good for you. However, all I see is Short's reluctance to spend and the admittedly appalling injury situation being used to absolve Moyes of all of his mistakes. Those mistakes have not improved the situation he found himself in even if they haven't actually exacerbated it.

I never expected him to be the greatest motivator or most cavalier of managers but none of the technical and tactical qualities that I thought he'd bring to the role have materialised and so no amount of derivative truisms or conservative cliches are going to convince me that he's the right man for the job. I bloody hope he proves me wrong over the next few months though because, under Short who is the real villain, I really fear what will happen if we go down.
 
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Brian Creampie said:
Problem is the free for those two was bearly half what they wanted for Kazan. I would rather we got him instead of them, but it was unworkable. We had him in Jan for free had we been prepared to pay him more. Don't know if we were right or not to not offer him more money because I don't what we offered or his demands.

Ultimately I think the problem with us is because we're riddled in debt we want everything on the cheap and handed on a plate. It's a stance which isn't getting us very far in squad recruitment.
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This, I totally agree with. The real problem is the financial situation. Everything else is a product of that. But to my mind, that means that you have to be **** hot on everything else and I just don't see that happening. Which I find frustrating <laugh>
 
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Brian Creampie said:
It's a mess init.
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It bloody is. I realise I'm idealistic but in this situation I really want to see some radical thinking being applied. I'd love to see what Marcelo Bielsa, a real student of the game and a proper leftfield thinker, could do with us in this situation. Moyes, and I dount you'll agree, just seems to be bogged down in old school ways to me.
 
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The Norton Cat said:
It bloody is. I realise I'm idealistic but in this situation I really want to see some radical thinking being applied. I'd love to see what Marcelo Bielsa, a real student of the game and a proper leftfield thinker, could do with us in this situation. Moyes, and I dount you'll agree, just seems to be bogged down in old school ways to me.
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I had this debate with my mate. I was saying that about 6 or 7 years ago, football went through a monumental change. For so long every team played 4-4-2 and with all the changes and how quickly the game moved on with possession football and realising it is better to have one up front, a lot of managers were found out and quickly became dinosaurs.

I think Biesla is a great shout, he plays the 3-3-3-1 tactic and I think that is genius. It allows you to defend heavily in numbers and as long as the team quickly press the ball and win it back, you can attack with 7 players going forward. It also allows to play a 6 man midfield and kill games off when in the lead. I don't think the evolution of football is done yet, I'm sure there's more new ideas to come.
 
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The Norton Cat said:
It bloody is. I realise I'm idealistic but in this situation I really want to see some radical thinking being applied. I'd love to see what Marcelo Bielsa, a real student of the game and a proper leftfield thinker, could do with us in this situation. Moyes, and I dount you'll agree, just seems to be bogged down in old school ways to me.
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I think Moyes is perfectly adequate for team in our position, don't like him as a person but his squad is limited and it would take a hell of a lot more money than he's had to change that. Annual swapping of managers is completely ruining us and I'm sick of it. Are we under achieving with the quality of our squad? I'd say no, it's got relegation battle written all over it, so sacking a manager for the club being at it's level I think is just wreckless to our overall situation. It would take a lot worse than Moyes to get me calling for a replacement. We've got to stop burning though senior management and new infrastructures.

Besides. Sam Didn't want Lens, Moyes doesn't want Khazri. Swapping managers constantly leads to player investments going right down the ****ter too. Hemorrhaging us more money.

I'm a long way off calling for Moyes head. Mind you, he's a better man than than me. I would have quit this club by now.
 
I think regarding the finances we need a clean start. Which means a new owner. Clear all the debts and start again. Most of our high earners will be gone soon too.
 
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Safc83 said:
I had this debate with my mate. I was saying that about 6 or 7 years ago, football went through a monumental change. For so long every team played 4-4-2 and with all the changes and how quickly the game moved on with possession football and realising it is better to have one up front, a lot of managers were found out and quickly became dinosaurs.

I think Biesla is a great shout, he plays the 3-3-3-1 tactic and I think that is genius. It allows you to defend heavily in numbers and as long as the team quickly press the ball and win it back, you can attack with 7 players going forward. It also allows to play a 6 man midfield and kill games off when in the lead. I don't think the evolution of football is done yet, I'm sure there's more new ideas to come.
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I bloody love all this stuff, tactical innovation and that. I love reading about the teams and managers that brought it fresh ways of thinking and playing, I'm completely obsessed with the Hungarian team of the 50s and the Dutch team of the 70s.
I think you're right about a lot of managers being found at as dinosaurs. I think a lot of them are just going through the motions too, copying what they see the real innovators doing and not really thinking about how they can change things. You get the odd one who comes along though who just changes the game. Bielsa has to be my favourite at the moment- I love his approach, the flexibility of it, and the way he expects his team to be proactive. I also like that he's a bit mad- sitting on that cooler box constantly and refusing to talk to his players about anything but football. I reckong it would be really interesting to see what he could do with our shower. Won't ever happen though.

On that same subject, I've just bought that Inverting the Pyramid book that you mentioned a while back. I've read a few by the same bloke- have you read the Outsider, about goalkeepers? Had me fascinated.
 
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