Off Topic UK / EU Future

You do have a choice SH. you can turn away anyone with a criminal record for a large variety of crimes - this is why we have passport scanning. You cannot turn away an EU. citizen who is 'legal', and this will not change after Brexit - at least not at the point of entry. Likewise you cannot differentiate between EU. citizens and say Dutch tourists can come in with no problem but not Rumanian Romanis - by the way most Romanis in Rumania do not have ID cards or passports.

 

twisting what was said again... what about the big bus and what it said?????

On each of the three points you raise:
Sovereignty.... what actually will we benefit with?
control of our borders... well we have always had that.. .and the 'Tory' govt lets in far more non EU than EU citizens
Cash...... will the tory govt continue to support our local heritage cinema one of the oldest in the UK ? etc etc etc

 

The big bus gave an amount we send to Brussels and also said there would be more money for the NHS if we do not send large amounts to Brussels. Both correct.

 

The big bus deliberately implied there would be an extra £350m per week for the NHS. A deliberate deception. Even Vote Leave have admitted that.
I am not too bothered by it as anyone foolish enough to believe it, was stupid enough to be a brexiter anyway.

 

The amount did not include the rebate which we get back from Brussels.

 

Interesting as joining this thread again today.... I see polarisation...... and no shifting... not surprising when much of it is SH versus the EU

Trouble with this debate is at it goes on it gets more and more difficult to change ones mind on any detail........

 

I am not sure I have known anyone change their mind on brexit. It seems to be a bit of a marmite subject.
Shame of course that we only have one brexit supporter here as there are lots of other good arguments I have seen made but we do not get them here.

 

also bereft of decent remain arguments so far.

 

what rubbish

1) World peace......European peace
2) Best trade deals
3) Research partnerships
4) Medicine
5) Shared education opps at HE
6) Regional investments
7) Cultural investments
8) Jobs
9) Human rights
10) Security
11) The environment
12) Influence in one of the biggest political and economic groupings in the world

Basically with Brexit.. you tear it all up and start again

 

Rubbish

 

Brexiters should remember that they are not just tearing up the things which you mention Yorkie, but may be tearing up the UK. at the same time. Scots have woken up to an unfortunate fact. Having things done to you by a neighbour who vastly outweighs you, and who can conceivably make all sorts of important choices on your behalf, is an uncomfortable position to be in. The Union has existed for so long because precisely such a one sided relationship has been avoided in the past. The Scots remainers woke up as a large disenfranchised majority, and there will be repercussions from this. I would suggest a referendum of a different sort - namely one for English and Welsh independence from the Union. Scotland and Northern Ireland could continue in the EU. as the remainder of the UK. England and Wales could leave just as Greenland left (when they split from Denmark), or Algeria when they split from France. This appears to be the only way to circumvent the EU's stubbornness on this ie. their refusal to befriend separatists in any way (even to the point of turning a blind eye to Spanish rubber bullets).

 

Stop standing on the fence SH Would you like to explain why it is rubbish ?

 

One argument for Remain trumps everything else. It is economically our best course of action. Leaving the EU will make us poorer which will affect the NHS, education, police, housing and every other thing that we need to spend money on. The last 8 years of trying to recover from Gordon Brown's folly should have taught everybody that a strong economy is paramount. Even TM knew that which is why she was a Remainer. I would have thought that as a Tory SH you would appreciate the need for the strongest economy possible. Instead you cite a few intangibles like sovereignty (as if that matters or means anything) and just hope there are some good trade deals out there to replace what was a very good trade deal.

 

According to one Brexit supporting newspaper today, there has been a big shift in both N. Ireland and Scotland towards remaining in the EU. Both areas voted to remain quite heavily, so to see even more movement suggests that the white paper is not going down well. With 72% of people of the whole UK now saying they don't expect a good deal it is no surprise that the calls for a second vote is gathering pace.

 

That's a very good point Frenchie. In fact you would think even the Welsh would realise their folly, not to mention farmers, fishermen and people working in factories.

 

I do not accept you, or anybody else, is qualified to say the UK will be poorer after Brexit. You are of course entitled to your guesswork which is all it is.

 

I do not claim to be qualified.
Forecasts though by just about every body that is not pushing brexit consistently show that the UK will be worse off. Forecasts are not pure guesswork as you will know as I am sure in business life you had to produce plans for bankers and make forecasts. These involve research into many aspects of "the future". If you believe they are just guesswork then you are displaying a naivety that I do not think someone in your position is guilty of. Therefore you know that forecasts are not just guesses.
Logic also tells us that if you make trading with your biggest customer harder and hope to replace it with multiple deals with countries that know you need them more than they need you then you are not likely to be better off.
If you think the UK will be economically better off then you are in a very small minority. Even JR-M accepts that it might be 50 years before we get "benefits" - so even an arch no-deal brexiter is not supporting your stance.

 

It is of course guesswork, but rather educated guesswork to suggest that becoming the only country in the World to rely totally on WTO rules does not make sense. We have access to the biggest market in the World, and preferential access to 50 other countries trade - the assumption that ending all that under the hypothesis that we will recover some of it with individual trade deals does not make sense. On Brexit day we will be starting from Zero (assuming a hard Brexit).

 

I have not said we will not be poorer but question the qualification of your assertion. Osborne predicted mass unemployment and the need for an emergency budget once the result for Brexit was known. The governor of the bank of England has already apologised for his incorrect 'assertion' I would accept slightly lower growth for a few years to gain the benefits.
France's growth was half the UKs in the second quarter, is this the golden club we will be missing?

 

There is no basis for that comment... and really trivialises your position..

I could detail the damage done to research and to higher education for example as a result as one example..... let alone the serious economic damage to our universities with the resultant decline in intentional student numbers
.
I dont think there is one University Vice-Chancellor who would see a benefit in Brexit for Higher Education... let alone assert that my comments are rubbish

The Gov have t fouled up international student visas in recent years losing the country hundreds of millions Sterling in lost income as a result.

Things will get much worse if we lose EU students through Erasmus... let alone the loss of the opportunity for home students to study in some of the best European universities.