Off Topic UK / EU Future

It was a perfectly valid statement, it wasn't rude. In what way was it incorrect?

 

I would have thought that SH would be rather happy today as we have seen the elected MPs take back a little more control over this process, and away from the unelected cabinet. Our democracy rests in the hands of MPs across all parties. Some we may have voted for, others we will not have, but we have to trust in them to do what is right for us. In the debate that should have finished before Christmas, but has just started up from scratch again today, there is some movement towards having some agreed way forward across the house. There is no real support for the PM who has taken it upon herself to be the sole person who can get a deal. Equally there is even less support for the minority view of the rump group within the Tory party. For a minority government to try and ignore the opposition is pretty unwise in normal times, but when they are trying to make plans for a crisis as they are, you need some very clear thinking indeed.

 

I don't think that anyone can say with certainty what a 'no deal' Brexit would be like, because there is no precedent for it. We can all quote one study, or prognosis, against the other but, in the end, we are stepping into the dark. You do not know for certain what jumping off a cliff is like - who knows ? All the scientists, and Newton, may be wrong - you could fly ! You don't know for certain until you try it. But in the absence of real first hand knowledge we can only go on what the so called 'experts' say. It is clear that there is a constitutional battle going on in Parliament - there are not the numbers for a hard Brexit, but how can Parliament proceed other than by tabling one amendment after the other thus proving that they have those numbers. In the end we have a Government ruling without the consent of Parliament - the very thing which our democracy was meant to prevent, paralyzed by an idea that 'The Will of the People' is frozen in time, even though that 'Will' may have changed in the meantime. The only way to actually ensure that we do not get a hard Brexit (which only a minority in Parliament, and in the nation) wants, is to bring down that Government - that is becoming clearer and clearer every day.

 

Nothing that has happened in the last couple of days that necessarily makes a 'no deal' scenario less likely. The default position remains leave without a deal if May's deal is rejected. Of course the PM is at liberty to make alternative decisions.

Cabinet members are elected as MP's then chosen to be included in government by the PM, this is perfectly normal and democratic. It is also perfectly normal for minority governments to ignore the views and advise of the official opposition. The clearest thinking can be found in the ERG.

 

The problem you have with 'bringing down the government' is a lousy unpopular split Labour Party. Talk about out of the frying pan!!!!!

 

It is abundantly clear that a government which loses one vote after another in Parliament has lost the mandate to govern. It is the entire house which is elected by the people, not the Cabinet - and so the collective will of the House is, automatically, the collective will of the people - this is how our so called democracy works.

 

A touch of desparation in your reply methinks ! It appears from recent events that Corbyn is more in a position to get a majority in the house than May is.

 

See minority governments losing vote after vote and you know that they are in their last days. As the DUP will not give support for much longer on issues outside the Brexit debate, then it is certain that the current state will soon be at an end. Red lines have been made and abandoned, and we can expect that the PM will want to stay in Downing Street even if she has to go against everything she has been saying. We will see just how long it will take.

 

Not in reality, he is currently dependent on rebel Tories. He would need to go to the country where he is most unpopular along with his ragged party.

 

Are you trying to tell us that the Tories are so united they will all be voting for the the PMs deal?

 

Not in reality. The DUP have only said they will not support the government in the event of her deal being agreed. As there is little chance of that then they are unlikely to be the problem. The main threat to the government is the Tory wreckers such as Soubry, Grieve and fellow MPs that have been passed over for promotion.

 

Not sure how you have come up with that weird suggestion?

 

I thought you were commenting on the fact that the Labour party was disunited, and was asking if peace had suddenly broken out amongst the Tories.

 

I don't follow your logic that Labour being disunited must make the Tories completely united.?

They clearly are not.

Maybe the Tory rebels can join your phantom predicted 'third way' political party? It's a long time time coming, perhaps you failed to let them know?

 

If you wish to make a virtue of parties being united which you tried to do when talking about the Labour party, then you must be dismayed by the disunity within your party. Still so be it!

I think that with the cross party cooperation we have seen of late, the sensible middle way is coming through. That is what I wish for, the extremists on either side kept away from taking decisions that will set the country back years for my children and grandchildren.

 

Of course I did not deny the obvious disagreements in the Tory party, it would be foolish to try. However what the Tories do not have is a leader who has failed a vote of no confidence within their party as suffered heavily by Corbyn.

The UK electorate continue to indicate their preference for the Tories with Labour well behind.

It was not long ago another of your 'predictions' promised the end of the domination of the UK's two party system. Unfortunately this prediction was soon followed by a general election which the Tories and Labour gained a record percentage of support. Perhaps you were taking about sometime well in the future, maybe ready for your grandchildren's grandchildren?

 

I am afraid that you have a leader that is there by default after all others decided that they didn't want the gig.

You keep on trying to make out by selective use of figures that this government was returned a year ago on a wave of popular support. Of course we know that nothing could be further from the truth. The PM asked for an increased majority so that she could railroad her ideas through on Brexit. Both you and I know that the result showed that it didn't happen, and the result is that the government is beholden to the DUP. You can argue that it is because of the electoral system that we have this deadlocked situation, but that is something you believe to be the best.

You really should watch and listen to some of the ordinary MPs. They are not trying to defend the indefensible. They are moderates from both sides of the chamber. The media concentrate on the sensational items, but that is not really informative. You quoted an item from the Express this morning, which within the hour was shown to be nonsense. A good example of media involvement which has an agenda to influence people, yet a rabid Brexiteer was still quoting it this evening. A Tory from Scotland has just said that he cannot support the deal on offer, but is willing to work across the house to find a way forward. Maybe we should really listen to the ordinary MPs that have to speak to the people that they represent.

This whole Brexit exercise has turned out to be a black hole that has sucked the life out of normal decent government. The things that should be the important matters for government to address are now secondary. This is the worst thing that could have happened to the country, and all because Cameron was frightened that he would lose overall power for the Tories.

 

Not at all, I'm just going by the latest Uk poll results showing Labour 6 points behind the Tories. This is an incredible poor position for Labour as an opposition party would normally be 15 points ahead mid term given the governments problems with Brexit. The first past the post system is preferred by the electorate, they firmly rejected the Lib Dems feeble attempt to change it.
The majority of ordinary MPs have supported Brexit throughout the whole leaving process. If MPs vote against May's deal and the EU refuse to negotiate properly then I cannot see much alternative to leaving without a deal.

 

You are now quoting polls, that you were very happy to believe would return the Tories to power with a huge majority, and we know what happened. What went wrong SH?
You will no doubt blame it again on the social care costs that were being proposed, but no one issue decides any election.
The Labour Party would normally have been well ahead in normal times, but that is not what we have today. Maybe that is because they are doing what the government are doing and trying to keep the public out of the information loop. As I suggested, this government has been consumed by a black hole that is sucking the life out of it.
The EU has once again given far more to the UK than it really wanted to do. As seen in Parliament today, there is no majority for leaving. Despite saying they respect the referendum result, MPs are saying that they do not accept the May deal, and will not accept no deal. So where now? The one thing that there is a majority for is not leaving with no deal.

 

You have correctly identified one of the main reasons the Tories did not repeat their stunning victory in the local elections. The Labour Party are still deemed as unfit for purpose now as they have been since 2010. I don't believe the majority of MPs will eventually abandon their previously shown determination to respect the referendum result. The default position without a deal is to leave without a deal. I cannot see a Conservative government agreeing to another referendum. I would imagine May would try to extend article 50 to give herself further time to wear down opposition to her crappy deal. There is paper talk of a possible general election but this must also be treated as doubtful.