http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringelmann_effect http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-ringelmann-effect.htm Andy Lewers@AndyLewers All #WatfordFC fans should have a look at something called The Ringleman Effect aka Coordinational Losses. A theory as to why we won. I saw this on the WO site abd posted it as a bit of amusement. The theory that the larger the group the more inefficient individuals are with their efforts.... alluding to our squad size. In actuality the converse is also true. I taught group dynamics for many years at fawlty towers and I used to do a survival simulation ( not a dive!) with students. What we proved year in and year out is that a cohesive team achieved better survival chances than a non-cohesive team and that more importantly..... less capable members performed better in a more cohesive team. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. or 1+1 =11 ... also called synergy. I thought it useful to post this as many of us saw on the w/e how the team was performing as a group, so much better, and we ground out a win. I and others c ommented on this. The GT days were and example of this. GT developed a team ethos and journeymen players together fulfilled their individual potential and achieved much greater things as a group. GT was a great leader who inspired his players to work as a cohesive team.. and it was great watch. Similarly we had a season or so with this with Aidy who also motivated his squad to in a sense over-achieve.. and then he lost the plot and we became mediocre. Incidentally both GT and AB use motivational psychology to get the best out of thier players. Anyway the point I am making is that it is LEADERSHIP that helps create COHESION ( which is the glue of a group) which achieves success. Group size does enable players to hide etc but a good leader with create the best environment for success. (OK lecture over.... I shall go back into early retirement I do think it is an intersting debate as in the golden years GT consistently got players as a team to achieve greatness.
Blooming heck Yorkie, I am barely awake and have something that needs thought. My early reaction is that we hear about players in the dressing room who may not be the best on the pitch, but show great leadership off it. Can you actually have too many leaders and not enough followers?
Sorry...... I am still suffering work withdrawal and didn't realise... i will go and make a strong coffee But yes.... you can have too many chiefs of course...... the boss has to deal with that....
Spot on Yorkie, there is much more to achievement than just numbers. My first thought on this new fangle dangled theory was it is a rehash of the well established Law of Diminishing Returns
So true I used to clean the spark plugs and fine tune the carburettor of my old cars.... now I can barely find where to put the windscreen wash!
I think this also works in reverse. If we only had 20 players in the squad then there would be no motivation to improve and keep you place in the squad. You can become complacent and you wont improve. So we need the competition for places, not just to protect against injuries or suspensions, but to keep the quality high. The difficulty is finding that balance where you create the competition but dont start going backwards.
With the players we have... players that are of quite good quality throughout the squad... for me even 20 players is competitive. That's almost one for each man on the pitch... so everyone has competition of some sort. 40 odd is just ridiculous, you can't rotate the squad that much. I think somewhere in the middle, around 30, is realistically better... with injuries and all.
Yas Zola more or less admits he was lumbered with this number.... we are spoilt for choice after previous seasons..
I think ideally you would have 2/3 players for each position so that you have cover for any eventuality. So 3 GK, 4CB(2 left, 2 right), 3LB, 3RB, 3RM, 4CM(2 left, 2 right), 3LM, 4ST. So 25-30 is a reasonable number, plus the matchday squad is 20 (11+7+2(backup in case of injury before KO)) so if you have 30 you can rest the 11 and still have a full reserve team so everyone gets game time, but you allow for sufficient rest too. i also think a lot of this has been created because we have used youth players for a couple of games and so they are on the list, but they are not realistically going to get a game, the likes of Tumwa, Hamilton-Forbes, Mingoia, Whichelow. You might even have included Connor Smith and Tommy Hoban until recently.
I've never been a great believer in competition as the best model for maximizing improvement. Competition only requires you to be better than, at best, the second best. Usually it only encourages you to be better than the best you think you can beat. I much prefer the intrinsic motivation model where you are always striving to be better than you have been previously. That way you maximize your potential. Anyone who can motivate you to do that is brilliant. In terms of this debate it then doesn't matter how many players are in the squad.
LOL!!!!! I was expecting a serious posting !! Of course ... there was only one Best drummer in the beatles!!!
Yes I agree.. when i did my coaching training we had the then coach of Blackburn Rovers come and do a session with us to demonstrate how using the Inner Game model anybody could work with a football.... i.e reach their potential by by passing negative thoughts... It was very interesting and we had all these business people playing football, dribbling etc... . So yes squad size per se does not affect dynamics negatively.. Inner game was originally developed by Tim Gallwey who was a tenning coach and later he developed it for golf.... Tiger Woods is a case in point.. when he worries with his technique his game is really poor then when he forgets it and focusses on his goal his game is much better.... commentators pointed this out at Medinah last week where his first 9 were poor and he really went for it on the 2nd 9.
Only just seen this...fascinating. There must be a counter-theory, showing the opposite impact of small group size e.g. Can it be demonstrated I operate bottle-opening more efficiently when Mrs H has gone out shopping? If no-one has thought of it before I shall call it The Theo Effect
Once heard this quote from a reasonably successful manager in response to the question 'What was the key to his team management ?' 'To keep the half dozen who don't like you away from the six who have yet to make up their mind'.
