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Off Topic The Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Queens Park Rangers' started by Stroller, Jun 25, 2015.

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

Poll closed Jun 24, 2016.
  1. Stay in

    56 vote(s)
    47.9%
  2. Get out

    61 vote(s)
    52.1%
  1. Steelmonkey

    Steelmonkey Well-Known Member

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    Good analysis of how the West pandered to Putin for years, leading to him feeling that the West would do nothing to stop him in his conquest for greatness...

    Ukraine crisis: The West fights back against the Russian revanchist

    Successive US presidents have struggled to get the measure of Vladimir Putin but now that Brussels and Berlin have joined the fray with such resolve, it's a different story, writes Nick Bryant.

    It is often tempting to look upon Vladimir Putin as the millennium bug in a human and deadly form.

    The Russian president rose to power on 31 December 1999, as the world held its breath that computers would go into meltdown when the clock struck midnight, unable to process the change from 1999 to 2000.

    In the 20 years since, Putin has been trying to engineer a different kind of global system malfunction, the destruction of the liberal international order. The former KGB spymaster wanted to turn back the clock: to revive Russia's tsarist greatness and to restore the might and menace of the Soviet Union prior to its break-up in 1991....

    This Russian revanchist has become the most disruptive international leader of the 21st Century, the mastermind behind so much misery from Chechnya to Crimea, from Syria to the cathedral city of Salisbury. He has sought - successfully at times - to redraw the map of Europe.

    He has tried - successfully at times - to immobilise the United Nations. He has been determined - successfully at times - to weaken America, and hasten its division and decline.

    Putin came to power at a moment of western hubris. The United States was the sole superpower in a unipolar world. Francis Fukuyama's End of History thesis, proclaiming the triumph of liberal democracy, was widely accepted.

    Some economists even peddled the theory that recessions would be no more, partly because of the productivity gains of the new digital economy. It was also thought that globalisation, and the interdependence it wrought, would stop major economic powers fighting wars. The same utopianism attached itself to the internet, which was seen overwhelmingly as a force for global good.

    In the early days especially, the same misplaced optimism and wishful thinking coloured the west's approach to Putin - a figure, it is now obvious, who was trying to buck history and thwart democratisation, however many lives were lost in the process.

    Successive US presidents have played into his hands. Bill Clinton, the occupant of the White House when Putin came to power, handed this ultra-nationalist a popular grievance by pushing for the expansion of Nato right up to Russia's borders. As George F Kennan, the famed architect of America's Cold War strategy of containment, warned at the time: "Expanding Nato would be the most fateful error of America policy in the entire post-Cold War era."

    George W Bush completely misjudged his Russian counterpart. "I looked the man in the eye," Bush famously said after their first meeting in Slovenia in 2001. "I found him very straightforward and trustworthy… I was able to get a sense of his soul." Bush mistakenly thought he could mount a charm offensive with Putin, and gently cajole him further down the democratic path.

    But even though Bush visited Russia more than any other country - including, as a personal favour, two trips in 2002 to Putin's home city, St Petersburg - the Russian leader was already displaying dangerously despotic tendencies.

    In 2008, Bush's final year as president, Putin invaded Georgia - what he called a "peace enforcement operation". The Kremlin argued then - and has continued to argue ever since - that it was hypocritical for Washington to complain about this violation of international law after Bush had invaded Iraq.

    Barack Obama sought to reframe US-Russian relations. His first secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, even handed her Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov a mock reset button (which was mistakenly labelled with the Russian word for "overloaded"). But Putin knew that America, after its long wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, no longer wanted to police the world.

    When Obama refused in 2013 to enforce his red-line warning against Bashar al-Assad when the Syrian dictator used chemical weapons against his own people, Putin saw a green light. By helping Assad carry out his murderous war, he extended Moscow's sphere of influence in the Middle East when the United States wanted to extract itself from the region. The following year, he annexed Crimea, and established a foothold in eastern Ukraine.

    Despite being told by Obama to "cut it out," Putin even sought to influence the outcome of the 2016 presidential election in the hope that Hillary Clinton, a long-time nemesis, would be defeated and that Donald Trump, a long-time fan boy, would win.

    The New York property tycoon made no secret of his admiration for Putin, a sycophantic approach that seems to have further emboldened the Russian president. Much to Moscow's delight, Trump publicly criticised Nato, weakened the US post-war alliance system and became such a polarising figure that he left America more politically divided than at any time since the Civil War.

    Arguably, then, you have to reach back 30 years to find a US leader whose approach to the Kremlin has stood the test of time. After the fall of the Berlin Wall, George Herbert Walker Bush resisted the temptation to rejoice in America's Cold War victory - much to the astonishment of the White House press pack, he refused to travel to Berlin for a victory lap - knowing that it would bolster hardliners in the Politburo and military seeking to oust Mikhail Gorbachev.

    That magnanimity in victory helped when it came to bringing about the reunification of Germany, which was arguably Bush's greatest foreign policy success.

    Putin is obviously a more formidable adversary, harder to deal with than even Leonid Brezhnev or Nikita Khrushchev, the Soviet premier during the Cuban Missile Crisis. But since the turn of the century no US president has truly had his measure.

    Joe Biden, like George Herbert Walker Bush, is a Cold War warrior, who has dedicated his presidency to defending democracy at home and abroad. Seeking to re-establish America's traditional post-war role as the leader of the free world, he has sought to mobilise the international community, offered military aid to Ukraine and adopted the toughest sanction regime ever targeted against Putin.

    As Russian forces amassed at the border, he also shared US intelligence showing that Putin had decided to invade, in ways that sought to disrupt the Kremlin's usual misinformation campaigns and false flag operations.

    His State of the Union address became a rallying cry. "Freedom will always triumph over tyranny," he said. And while Biden does not the speak with the clarity or force of a Kennedy or a Reagan, it was nonetheless a significant speech.

    What's been striking since the Russian invasion started, however, has been the assertion of forceful presidential leadership from elsewhere. Volodymyr Zelensky has been lauded and lionised, as he has continued this extraordinary personal journey from comedian to Churchillian colossus.

    In Brussels, the president of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, has been another commanding presence. This former German politician has been a driving force behind the decision, for the first time in EU history, to finance and purchase weapons for a nation under attack, a commitment that includes not just ammunition but fighter jets as well.

    Her compatriot, the new Chancellor of Germany Olaf Scholz, has also shown more resolve in dealing with Putin than his predecessor Angela Merkel. At warp speed, he has overturned decades of post-Cold War German foreign policy, an approach so often predicated on caution and timidity towards the Russian leader.

    Berlin has sent anti-tank and anti-aircraft systems to Ukraine (ending the policy of not sending weapons to active war zones), halted the Nord Stream 2 Baltic Sea gas pipeline project, withdrawn its opposition to blocking Russia from the SWIFT international payments system, and even committed to spending 2% of its GDP on defence spending.

    The biggest assault on a European state since World War Two has stiffened European resolve. But so, too, it seems has the relative weakness of America. Mindful of the botched US withdrawal from Afghanistan and possibility of a Trump 2.0 presidency, European leaders seem to have realised that they can no longer lean so heavily on Washington to defend democracy in this hour of maximum peril. Leadership of the free world has, in this crisis, become a common endeavour.

    Even since the end of the Cold War, Washington has been calling upon European nations to do more to police its own neighbourhood, something they failed to do when the break-up of the former Yugoslavia sparked the Bosnian war. Historians may well conclude that it took a combination of Putin's aggressiveness, America's fragility, Ukraine's heroic resolve and the fear that Europe's post-war stability is truly on the line to finally make that happen.

    It would be naive to be swept away by the romanticism of Zelensky's speeches or to succumb to the dopamine high of watching the seizure of Russian-owned super-yachts unfold on social media. Putin is intensifying the war. But the last week has sent a message to Moscow - and to Beijing as well - that the post-war international order still continues to function, despite the deployment of the Russian war machine to bring about its collapse. Just as history never ended, nor has liberal democracy.

    As Joe Biden put it in his State of the Union, during a passage in which rhetoric served also as sober analysis: Putin "thought he could roll into Ukraine and the world would roll over. Instead, he met a wall of resistance he never imagined".

    Nick Bryant is the author of When America Stopped Being Great: a history of the present. He is the former New York correspondent for the BBC and now lives in Sydney.
     
    #74101
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  2. Sooperhoop

    Sooperhoop Well-Known Member

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    An interesting look at the battle for Kiev from a military perspective...

     
    #74102
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  3. sb_73

    sb_73 Well-Known Member

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    Further to this there there is a long article on ‘Clive of Kyiv’ in the Sunday Times today, that’s Clive Myrie, who has been anchoring the news from a roof in Kyiv for some time. Nothing against him personally, indeed he is enjoyably sweary off screen,, and I much prefer him to say, Huw Edwards, but he has a team of 5 out there to support him, and they all spend most of their day in the basement of the building that they broadcast from. Can’t blame them for wanting to be safe, but why bother with this, it seems to be purely for the drama.

    Anyway, more important things happening than this.
     
    #74103
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  4. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

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    Interesting points.
     
    #74104
  5. Staines R's

    Staines R's Well-Known Member

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    I thought visa/Mastercard would still work internally in Russia if issued by Russian banks ? I don’t think it’s as simple as being that all their cards are now useless (though I could be wrong.

    I agree that it seems the theory is to make life so hard for the Russian people, that they have to come up with some kind of solution internally….however what scares me is that this may elicit some kind of nationalist trait that makes it ‘us against them’, possibly leading to some wider conflict.
     
    #74105
  6. Staines R's

    Staines R's Well-Known Member

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    Have they renamed “Chicken Kievs” yet ?
    I was gonna get some for my kids to have with their “freedom fries”
     
    #74106
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  7. Goldhawk-Road

    Goldhawk-Road Well-Known Member

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    I'd say that's a given. Kiev is a dead name.
     
    #74107
  8. Staines R's

    Staines R's Well-Known Member

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    It’s all a bit Derry/Londonderry.
     
    #74108
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  9. Goldhawk-Road

    Goldhawk-Road Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Mind you, Bombay Duck has yet to change its name to Mumbai.
     
    #74109
  10. Uber_Hoop

    Uber_Hoop Well-Known Member

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    Or Londresderry, as they say in Pareeeeeeeee.
     
    #74110
  11. Staines R's

    Staines R's Well-Known Member

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    Should we now refer to the “Black Hole of Kolkata” ? ;)

    An interesting part of my personal history is that Great (x something) grandfather was born at Fort William, Calcutta about 20 years before the infamous “Blackhole”. Nothing to do with the Ukraine but interesting I thought ;).
    I think his dad was a Reverend
     
    #74111
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  12. Goldhawk-Road

    Goldhawk-Road Well-Known Member

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    This guy Bryant is a typical Remainer BBC journalist. Throughout the whole of this piece, he makes no reference to the UK, reserving his praise for the EU and European, which is unprofessional and undermines the whole article. It was Germany under Merkel that risked putting all Germany's energy eggs in nice Vladimir's basket. BBC ****er.
     
    #74112
  13. Steelmonkey

    Steelmonkey Well-Known Member

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    **** me, not everything is about the UK! He spends most of that article pointing fingers at the failures of US foreign policy in pussy-footing around Putin, and has a dig at Merkel as well. No finger pointing or blame towards the open corruption in the UK from successive governments to allow dirty Russian money to be laundered at will through our banking system though....
     
    #74113
  14. Goldhawk-Road

    Goldhawk-Road Well-Known Member

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    Not everything? How about nothing. No, he cannot bring himself to mention the UK or Boris Johson, despite the fact that the UK was arming Ukraine with defensive weapons weeks before the EU. And it's counties like Germany that have done a massive U turn. Bryant has no credibility in my eyes.
     
    #74114
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  15. Steelmonkey

    Steelmonkey Well-Known Member

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    So you don't think his points about the failures of successive US Presidents, and their pandering to Putin, are relevant to what's happening in Ukraine?
     
    #74115
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  16. Goldhawk-Road

    Goldhawk-Road Well-Known Member

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    I'm in no way critical of you putting up the article, Steel. And there are some valid points re the US, but because of his obvious EU/Brexit bias, he loses credibility. BBC runs through him like a rock, even if he's left
     
    #74116
  17. Quite Possibly Raving

    Quite Possibly Raving Well-Known Member

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    Good article, thanks for sharing.

    The failure of Obama to enforce the red line(s) in Syria has had huge ramifications, within Syria and beyond. I don't dislike Ed Miliband much, seems a nice person on the whole, but he should be absolutely ashamed of his role in leading Labour to vote down UK action at the same time.
     
    #74117
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  18. kiwiqpr

    kiwiqpr Barnsie Mod

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    Someone else to look up
     
    #74118
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  19. Steelmonkey

    Steelmonkey Well-Known Member

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    You're Google history will make interesting viewing for the NZ security service (all three of them)
     
    #74119
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  20. Steelmonkey

    Steelmonkey Well-Known Member

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    #74120
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