He was also voted in a Guardian poll to have scored the greatest ever premier league goal. He certainly showed there is more to his game than physicality on that occasion. By the way, the comment about anyone playing next to Ibrahimovic having a decent a game is also very questionable. I don't know if it is still true but for a long time statistics showed Sweden achieved better results without Ibra. After his recent form, it is hard to believe but in 2011 there was a lot of serious debate about his place in the team. Of 60,000 voters in a poll, 75% said Sweden were better without him. At that time Elmander's place in the team was probably more deserved in the eyes of the public than Ibrahimovic's!
Again good, valid points. However he for me was always brought in as a back up option. As I say he has some attributes but based on what I have seen he is lacking is some aspects for me, but as a squad player coming off the bench he is OK. Do think we should be looking at better quality in the transfer window and again any CF will struggle with how we supply the front line. Look at yesterday when indeed Elmander broke free on the right to look up to find only one person in the box.Has to check back to wait for support and then the opposition get back to defend. Happens a lot with how we set up.
For me I certainly wouldn't want him being the lone striker up front, but I thunk lots of people are under appreciating his defensive contributions to the team, so I would say he is never anonymous. He does have a little bit of pace and skill and so far he has impressed me more than Van Wolfswinkel but for me he is a good player for his tireless workrates and strength. That said I would still like to see Becchio given an actual chance against to prove his critics wrong or right but against Liverpool I can only see us starting Hooper up-top and Elmander behind because it is the sort of game where he will be most needed.
And without injuries to RvW and Hooper, this is all he would have had to be! At 32, he's not getting any younger and his high work-ethic in games means he's already struggling to complete 90 minutes. But, if we had a fully fit squad, you wouldn't expect him to have to play anywhere near 90 minutes each game. Based on what we've seen of him so far, I think he's helpful to have in the squad, but I'm not sure we'll take him for another season. As to how good I think he is, he's a hard worker who tackles back well, and can play as the deeper striker and help link things up, which is a different option to me than Hooper and (probably?!) Becchio provide. He's helpful in a 4-4-2 because of this. I think with RvW fit you'd be more likely to see RvW playing the deeper role with Hooper further forward, but injuries are a part of the game unfortunately, and it's good to have players who can come in. As to replacing him, I personally think the strikers we have are good enough for the rest of this season, but imagine Elmander will be replaced in the summer (although wouldn't be surprised if the money goes on other positions and he comes back). I'd rather January funds were used to buy a CB, a central midfield player, or arguably a right back.
Nothing wrong with a thread about Elmander, my comment was directed at the contributions to it (NB the contributions, not the contributors). Thai's title is "The Elmander debate". Swapping opinions does not constitute a debate; a debate requires considered argument on a topic. And "considered" involves taking all the relevant material available to you into account in forming an opinion. Too much "debate" on here is mere swapping of unsupported opinion, often ignoring or showing ignorance of relevant facts and other considerations. In this case the subject of the thread is Johan Elmander, a 32-year old Swedish international footballer, in the twilight of his career. The first few posts, some more or less positive, others critical, seem to me based on nothing more than "I've seen him a few times now playing for us and ......." Surgeryman's initial verdict writes him off in terms which could not possible be true given his career record. That post was ill-considered -- hence my sarcastic reply. You, Cromer, ask who's opinions are to be assassinated next. The question is not who's but which. The answer is "the next ill-considered one". Nobody has a monopoly on ill-considered posts, though some posters make more of a habit of them than others.
Getting back to Elmander himself, I think he brings a different dimension up front. I've watched him playing for Sweden quite often this season and think he shows a lot more with them. I think it's still early days this season, but his value is as a second striker with a target man option that RvW and Hooper don't really have. I thought the flick on to the bar was very clever and but for the inches would have made a huge difference. I also think that he has a very positive attitude and temperament that's good for the team (maybe Swedish Dave knows more about that).
I can't say that I have any particular insight but he seems well liked by team mates. I can say that he seems to be well appreciated by the Swedish public. I think most fans will support a player who gives 100%, perhaps more so than a more talented player who appears at times to be doing less than they are capable of. "A real fighter" says my Swedish wife. "He works really hard", and obviously she knows a good man
I think part of the problem for me is that I am finding it hard to see where he is supposed to be fitting in to the team on match day. As a lone striker, I would not expect much from him to be honest, but as we play 4-5-1 for nearly every away game, or more often than not at home too - he is out of position a lot (if he is supposed to be a striker). Another thing that does not work in my favour is that I do not see the games for 'real' so do not see all his hard work off the ball, so much of my view is based only on what I can see, and sadly for me it is not quite as much as I was hoping for from a regular Swedish International striker. Ergo, I wanted to find out what, if anything, I have missed
Lets sign Robbie Fowler, Gary Lineker and Bobby Moore because their records were fantastic, and along with Robbies point of course players don't get any worse with age. I don't know why these footballers feel the need to retire at all. I personally think judging a player on his recent performances is a far more considered approach than basing your argument on what he was doing 5 years ago. I do think Surgery is being harsh as he's probably been our best forward this season, he's not great, but then again he's not got alot around him to help out. Same as the previous strike force.
Fine, but (a) you are then not "judging the player", you are discussing his contributions only in certain games (in which context, see below); and (b) who said anything about 5 years ago? Elmander has played 8 out of Sweden's 12 world cup qualifying games in the past two years, including both recent play-off matches against Portugal, scoring 3 times (second highest behind Ibrahimovich). He also played 52 times for Galatasary in the two years he was there before joining us, scoring 16 goals and thus keeping up his career scoring rate of a goal every 4 games. This introduces a very relevant consideration: he has made 10 league appearances for us so far, without scoring. Looked at against the background of his career record, including his most recent performances for teams other than us, he is falling short in terms of goals. The obvious question is how much of that is down to Elmander himself, and how much to other factors such as playing in a team currently lacking confidence, a team in transition, with several players still acclimatising, and constantly changing line-ups due to injury, etc., etc. IMO none of our current strike force have really had a chance to show what they can do; we have seen flashes from all them, but no more. So any "judgement" is simply premature.
Heh? If Elmander was 38, 53 or dead then I could understand the point you are making but the guy is 32. Surely it's reasonable to defend his international record for a team that he played in last week? That's a much more reasonable point. I'm happy for anyone to base their opinion purely on what they've seen. After all, nothing is more relevant than his performances in a Norwich shirt. However, whereas Surgeryman was a bit dismissive of his international record, for me it is decent and it says to me that he is capable of offering more for Norwich as, hopefully, the whole team improves.
Similar style/role maybe but nowhere near what grant Holt did for us. Perhaps a younger Elmander may have had a similar impact? And can I make it clear Robbie I am not writing him off or saying he is rubbish. As Munky has indicated he has some qualities but my response is based on the question asked and what I have seen irrespective of what he has done previously. For me he is not a player I rate highly but that is just my opinion.You disagree so I respect your opinion.
If he is going to be compared to Holt, I think we should also note that Holty has scored twice in 11 starts in the Championship, which is hardly comparable to the PL. I still feel we will see a lot more from all 3 strikers (and perhaps Becchio as well) as the season continues. As for Elmander's role, I see him as a second striker/ACM hybrid linking the midfield to the sole striker up front, not as a centre-forward as such. Swedish Dave will correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be the way he plays for Sweden as well. In recent games he has been playing wider in a 4-3-3 formation, which I believe he has done a fair amount earlier in his career.
Didn't make sufficient allowance for you being a medic surgeryman. Their writing is always completely unintelligible!
