I'm not going back through the thread, but I'm going to wear a red poppy. I want to show my appreciation of the people who volunteered or were conscripted to do something I hope I'll never have to. That's what wearing a poppy means. Like all symbols, some people see it as an opportunity to align my appreciation for that with their love of xenophobic nationalism (the flag of St George and the Union flag being the classic 'hijack') or uncritical patriotism (singing the US national anthem before sporting events). It's not. It's about the little people like me who stood up to be counted when events required it. And don't buy from anyone other than the British Legion. Britain First will just keep the money for themselves.
On reflection, while I wouldn’t object to people wearing a white poppy, I personally never could because having thought about it I’m not a pacifist. War should of course be avoided wherever possible, but not at all costs and in all circumstances, which I believe is what true pacifists want. I don’t really see why the white poppy needs to be worn for November 11th, which has a specific, clear purpose of remembrance, symbolised by the red poppy. In fact wearing it then may well wind up certain people, which would seem confrontational rather than pacific. Perhaps it could be worn on the International Day of Peace. Which is 21 September, in case any pacifists out there don’t know.
Agree with most of this, but I don't see why US citizens singing their anthem before a sporting event should be classed as "uncritical patriotism" which you do not wish to align yourself to.
Swords though - the sheer level of posting that man did must've left a gaping chasm in his life when he was banned
I was at a New York Yankees game recently, and was made to feel uncomfortable when they played the national anthem before the game. Everyone stood of course, so we reluctantly did too to avoid giving offence, but I resented being put in that position. I should have 'taken a knee' but didn't have the balls.
Surely, if someone is a guest in another country, he/she should stand with everyone else when that country's national anthem is played - out of respect for that country and its people. If the guest has no respect for the country, what is he/she doing there in the first place?
My problem is with them playing the national anthem in the first place. Save it for international events.
But it's their custom. Their country and their custom. If Americans want to object, that's one thing. But for visitors to object, is little better than the Norwegian born BME journalist, Afua Hirsch demanding that we pull down Nelson's column.
Like many from around the Commonwealth, my father ( rear gunner) flew 34 operations out of East kirby in Early 44. His crew were 3 x British, 2 x New Zealanders and 2 x Aussies. Having researched Bomber Command for some time, I can say that they flew possibly the longest Arvo Lancaster flight of 10 hrs and 25 minutes to Berlin and back..... just to get on the drink! My fathers Flight Engineer, Harry Parkins RAF, from Lincolnshire supplied the below comments ............. Operation Details - As told by ……………….. The Longest Lancaster Operation - 10 Hours 25 Minutes by Harry Parkins ( Flight Engineer ) I was on the bombing raid to Munich on 24 April 1944, with my Australian and New Zealander crew, as a flight engineer on board Lancaster “K” for Kitty. As air crew we received seven days’ leave every six weeks because of the dangerous nature of our work. This was our fifth operation and we were very apprehensive because, if we survived, were due seven days leave on our return. We were stationed at East Kirkby on 630 Squadron. We were briefed that this raid would probably be one of the longest bombing trips a Lancaster would make. We had to trick the Luftwaffe night fighters by flying over the French Alps into Italy and then on to Munich, making a round trip of more than 2,000 miles. After our run-up to check he engines and pre-flight checks, and owing to the limited amount of fuel we could carry, we were to taxi to the runway take-off point, shut down our engines and receive a last-minute top-up of fuel before taking off. If we survived the raid, we would be running short of fuel by the time we arrived back in England so we were instructed to land in the south, which meant we would miss a day of our leave. Our captain, a New Zealander, did not take kindly to this and, on our return following the raid, asked the rest of us what we thought. We all agreed that we should press on despite the risk and head back to East Kirkby in order to benefit from our full seven days leave. Luckily for us the weather was good and we landed safely after ten hours and twenty-five minutes in the air. As we started to taxi back to dispersal all the engines cut out. We had completely run out of fuel! We were towed in. They couldn’t believe we had flown all the way back and risked our lives on a few drops of fuel just to get an extra day of leave! At our debriefing we were severely reprimanded by the Flight Commander for taking this risk. At this point the Group Captain walked in asking if that was an aircraft that had just landed. The Commander replied yes it was these fools from the Munich raid. The Group Captain smiled and said “Well done Lads”. We received a good handshake all round for getting back in one piece. The rest of the squadron had kept to the rules and landed in southern England. Later we heard that this was the longest non-stop operation a Lancaster had flown during the war. In those days they called me 'AckneyArry' because I was from Hackney and before the age of 20 I had flown 36 operational raids from East Kirkby. The Australian and New Zealander aircrew I flew with were all a bit crazy. I remember we once upset a few officers at Skegness with our unconventional flying. In the early days at East Kirkby we used to fly out to sea and fire all our guns to test everything was working correctly. On this occasion we were flying below the level of Skegness pier. It was rather strange skimming along the surface and looking up to see the pier above us. There was one chap in a boat who leapt into the water when he saw us coming. On the way back we decided to take her over Butlins and the naval base where they were having a full military parade. We shot over their heads really low and they all ducked. Needless to say we were later taken into the group captain’s office and given a good telling off. We heard later that the officer in charge of the parade had said the next time we tried it his men would open fire on us. The crew of “K” for Kitty were an incredible bunch. The pilot, Joe Lennon, had worked on a dairy farm in New Zealand, whilst his countryman, Bruce Reece, our navigator, owned a racehorse. The rest of us were just ordinary guys. Our bomb aimer, Jim Hurman and the rear gunner Joe Pollard, were from Australia, the mid upper gunner, Joe Malloy, came from Liverpool. I was the youngest. I met my wife, Mavis, in Lincoln shortly after the war ended and have lived here ever since. _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I salute them all. Aussie.
There's a lot of blue crosses on that picture I can't believe the young age of so many of the aircrew. I don't think I would have been that brave at 20 or 21
There are an awful lot of blue crosses. So sad and so young. "Never was so much owed by so many to so few" RIP
It’s just a different culture Strolls, I don’t think there is anything sinister about it. We used to have the national anthem in cinemas and in our homes every night when the telly ended. As Goldie says, they will change it when they want to. Do you stand for the British national anthem?
It's not sinister, but it's a bit creepy. Yes, we used to have the national anthem in cinemas, but everyone used to just walk out, so they stopped doing it. Much healthier. I think it's a lack of self-confidence on the part of the septics - they have to keep reassuring each other just how great the land of the free really is. I'm not sure if I stand for our anthem because I can't remember the last time I was expected to. Probably not if I could safely avoid it. I felt immensely proud watching the 2012 Olympics opening ceremony and became even more so when I read the review of it in the NY Times, which said something like 'only a nation with a innate sense of superiority could have produced an opening ceremony of such humour and humility'. We don't have to beat our chests.
