Yeah statues are a different thing. However, I maintain at the time there wasn't anything wrong with what they did. It wasn't illegal etc to have slaves for example. That is why I feel it wrong to punish people for things in the past that weren't seen as wrong at the time. I agree though that we shouldn't celebrate it now. Do we need to take them all down or do we need other learn from it? genuine question?
I would say we need to be open to discussing it. Even at the time Clive was a controversial figure, but his great wealth enabled him to deflect prosecution at home.
Tol people what? No-one is apologising for the Frog. He is what he is and he was made by the ignorance of the rest of them and their army of sheeple!
?? So politics you don't like is populist but what you agree with isn't. I getcha. You described populism as making things black and white. as an either or. That is exactly what they have all been doing increasingly for the past 20-30 years. You are fully on board or you are one of them! Why is it that only the right wing version is populsim? Can you not see that they are all doing the same thing? Trying to say no half measures, fully on board or you're one of them? This is not as you seem to see it something Farage or Trump do and the rest don't! They all do this. If your description = populists then they are all populists. Starmer/Labour, Tories, all of them! They all play this charade of Do you 100% agree with us? You are one of them then. All the TV interviewers do it. Maitlis and O Brien are ridiculously bad for it. no grey are this end or that end? No nuance. either / or Can you not see that this is half of the problem? When you apply labels as "derogatory" on Farage yet are blind to the fact that all those that oppose Farage are doing exactly the same thing? I repeat why is it populism when the "baddies" do it but not when the "goodies" do it? And no I am not going to carry on and on with this as I can already see the replies so far show that none of you can see that the supposed "good guys" do exactly the same thing. None so blind as those that will not see...and all that jazz.
But both Starmer and Corbyn's supporters throw mud and try and shame people by attacking anyone that does not stay on message 100% as being one of them. They are grandstanders of either/or, us and them, with us or against us. That you can see it is not really surprising. Seems loads of people can only see the evils of the right. Angels cannot sin.
Oh dear oh dear oh dear. You mentioned the right. I just mentioned populists. There are indeed left wing populist parties in Spain and Greece. However, Labour has not set up a ‘them and us’ politics and has tried to weave the gap between polarised views. They even adopt the odd populist policy - but that is different to populism. Boris was a populist, using the EU as his them and us issue. Starmer is many things, but not a populist. Labour do not present society in simplistic terms of elites and norms. You know full well what a populist is. Not sure how you are taking this so poorly.
Strawman. Nobody said anybody is beyond reproach. Also you are really stretching to define Labour as populists. Very silly.
Tories recovering aren't going to get those traditional labour voters back! That is the key problem area. Corbyn/Labour might divvy up the modern middle class labour voters. The short term looking at where votes came from ignores that the vast majority of reform voters would've voted Labour 15 years or so ago! Traditional red wall working class voters. Only voted for Boris to get Brexit done and got shafter there y the Tories so they aren't returning. Imagine 2019 election without Boris and the Brexit issue! Hung parliament at best. Those voters were voting Tory as a one off. trouble for Labour is instead of returning to the red side they went the other way! People pinning their hopes on Tories are fooling themselves. Tories polling has been on the slide for nearly a year now. "around 20%" is being gentle on their plight. People are still ignoring which areas and with which demographics reform are constantly improving their numbers with and its all ex red voters atm. not ex blues. Look further back than the misleading 2019 election. Look at patterns since Blair! red wall has increasingly diminished % wise over time!
Not silly at all. They are all populists these days. they don' t care about listening or compromise. all about attacking anyone that does not comply 100% to the narrative. All sides and colours are at it. All the same. Not strawman at all. you are just unable to see that they are all at it! Starmer's team are terrible at it. They group describe people all the time! branding all protestors as far right a year ago! Not any nuance or grey areas there....All far right!. Anyone opposing any aspect of the online protection act = supporter of ****philes. Anyone who questions if the money going to Ukraine is actually getting to where it should = Putin apologists No grey areas. With us or you are one of them! Do not question anything or you are 100% against us!
You are welcome to define them like this if you like. They don’t fit the populist definition in almost any way, but you do you. The Strawman was saying Labour are beyond reproach when they clearly are not, and I am not sure Starmer has any real support on these boards.
I reiterate that I would like to see some effort to reclaim national symbols on the center and the left, but I also find it hilarious that these flags are being stuck up everywhere because of some notion that patriotism isnt allowed or some such nonsense, only to drive 15 mins down the road to Winchester and see that the city center is adorned in very tasteful looking Union Jack bunting. A city with a Liberal Democrat MP and City Council nonetheless. 'Carnt say your English these days'
It’s strawman politics. You banned this so we are doing it! Nobody banned it! Aha, you have succumbed to our patriotism and relented!
Accuse the opposition of what you intend to do yourself. Dictator Monthly’s rule for August. And Trump continues to enact ‘lawfare’ against those he has a grudge against. A term his lot invented to downplay his own criminal history.
I agree with the general theme of what you are saying about different eras and different standards. Why would anyone be embarrassed or ashamed of something that happened 300 years ago? But the writer wasn't defending any figure from back then or the flag flyers of today. His focus was on the type of person who wants to remove historical figures, stop the national flag being flown and their motives for doing so. The sort of person who talks about washing the blood out of the Union Flag. His comment below summarizes the point of the article and it's worth repeating because the self righteous completely miss that it's about them. "To apologise for the depravity of figures from the past is to declare yourself morally superior to them. To do so in front of the public or students is to convey the same message to people in the present: that you are a better person than them, too – more sensitive to the wickedness of people who are not you. Far from being a sign of meekness, remorse expressed as loathing of one’s own heritage is one of the highest forms of egotism and self-love."
Claptrap. The British had already realised the EIC were doing evil things by 1772, with various headlines in the papers about the death and suffering of Indian people. If the people of 1772 could say these people were bad, how is it morally superior to say so now? The true ego is the man who writes an article proclaiming he knows best about everybody else’s motives, using examples he has not himself researched and seems horribly ignorant of.
Even with that being said you miss that the poor (working class) had even less of a say in anything back then than they do now. They were as much ignored, treated as **** and oppressed as those that the posh boys in command of troops in the EIC were kllling to make their money! Anyways. Spiked is killing it with nail on the head articles at the moment! Yes there are some that peddle it a bit too far and yes I have to admit there may be a bit of confirmation bias because a lot of it is what I have been saying is happening (increasingly) for 10-20 years! I don't expect people who don't want to understand to accept what they (or I) say but maybe reading these sort of tings you could understand a little of the mindset even if you disagree entirely with the reasoning behind that mindset. Or you could just carry on saying "claptrap, its just racism" without understanding that is not the case. I think people need to understand that when we talk of left / right, Labour, Tory, establishment the actual government and policies is just a snippet of "the machine" that rolls out daily across all platforms backing up, defending, attacking dissenters. It is the commentariat with their fanbases and teams that do the heavy lifting and all the time people focus on Farage or right wingers that in reality are small amounts of voices fighting against a vast army of "right thinkers." It really is a vast network across platforms but all most people I am reading seem to notice are a few bad eggs on twitter and the rest is moaning about right wing press or TV giving airtime to Farage oblivious seemingly to the endless parade of talking heads denouncing anyone that dares not toe the line or even in a lot of the non political / news / current affairs output where the shows are squarely aimed to present the "nice people" as being the normal ones, not the crimpers and scrapers! Teaching middle class folks how not to spend massive amounts on £100 bottles of Prosecco and Omega watch collections (yes this was on one of the Beebs how to save money shows. lol. I find it so hard to understand how so many people seem not to notice the vast ratio difference between left / right wing output on legacy or new media! Massive focus on the reach of nasty right wingers when we are still looking at a 10:1 at best balance there but then of course "right side of history" and all that. right wing is increasing a bit though. We're not talking far right. That will always be a tiny minority no matter how much people want to make out it is bigger and no matter how "seen" that minority are. Ignore the plebs at your peril. This is not the days of EIC! we all get a vote now, and the troops can no longer charge in and shoot the dissenters! Right to protest is not just a left wing right think entitlement! Anyways. read or don't read. access it on waybackmachine tomorrow if you don't want your numbers to help their ad revenue "Like their predecessors, today’s so-called progressives are convinced they are on the right side of history. They view the world entirely in their own self-righteous image. Gardner and others like her have no life experience or skill that could actually help those migrants they believe to be ‘victims’. While they have dropped the old progressives’ attachment to eugenics, they remain faintly disdainful of ordinary people. They have no understanding of the British working class, no sense of why it is that those they are long used to patronising have had enough of being ignored or silenced." https://www.spiked-online.com/2025/08/22/posh-girls-for-illegal-immigration/
I think you are losing it. I have not mentioned racism anywhere. Nowhere. Not once. This is my point about you guys: you have to invent an argument that you can win when you have lost the argument we are having.
I did admit I might add interpretations into reading your posts just like you do on mine in an earlier post
That is just flat changing the topic. The question of history is about assessing the past, not building false idols out of wealthy men from history who do not deserve it. How is that racial? Such long, tiresome posts supporting such poorly conceived articles designed to do no more than jerk off the right and their weird sense of being hard done by. The only thing you got right was confirmation bias.
Let’s put this here: The left see life in black and white. The left DARE to question the past. Two statements which, if put together, would make someone a terrible hypocrite.
