I wonder how the people of Syria currently being bombed and shot at by a state that is supported by the Islamic state of Iran feel about Islamic fundamentalism?
In Ãsland more than 90% of the population is Christian of one type or another. The Ãjóðkirkjan or National Church of Iceland is Lutheran and is completely dominating, it was called The Evangelical Lutheran Church Of Iceland which since 1998 has lost about 10% of its members, very careless. 0.2% of the population claim to be Moslem (about 650) and they live in ReykjavÃk and for some odd reason DalvÃk. We have about 50 Jewish people, over 900 Buddhist people and 18,000 who say no faith. I think if one of the smaller religious groups except Buddhists started to become a problem they would get a smack. We even have 85 "Zen in Iceland - Night Pasture" whatever they do. I think it will be a long time before the Moslems in Ãsland feel bold to shout messages of hate in the streets, and I think also perhaps they would be the only group who might try.
Night Pasture sounds like something to do with cows, although I haven't heard (or should that be herd?) of anything like that here.
My son had a school friend, a Muslim. They were close from year 7. In fact, my son had a picture of a little Jewish boy and a little Muslim boy holding hands as his MSN avatar. This boy comes from a very normal Muslim family. My son was often over at his house, where his parents would listen interestedly to my son talking about his bar mitzvah. They were what i would call 'integrated'. Yes, they were religious in their way, but just like we are. We celebrate our religion, but we're as far from extremism as it's possible to be. But, the story has changed as the two friends have grown up. My son's friend has become much more 'religious', and now, all over his twitter there is hatred and it is perfectly obvious that he has believed all the propaganda. He is a nice kid, and always polite to me, but his twitter posts show his hatred for all things Israeli, which i tend to take quite personally, being as Israel is full of people (my people) who don't necessarily agree with what their government does. But i digress. The point is...as my son said the other day, it seems strange that the two religions are so similar and yet poles apart. One teaches to accept other people, and the other teaches hate. Obviously, that is extreme..but if my son's friend is anything to go by, it's not restricted to extremists, but to normal kids, who grow up in our towns. I have said for a while, that there will be a time in the future of my children, when this country won't be a safe place for them to live anymore. I truly believe that. I hope i'm wrong, and you might think i'm mad, but there's a lot going on that makes me feel very uncomfortable about the future of Jewish people in this country. i'm sorry i missed the programme, i'll try and catch it on iplayer.
I think I remember reading that out of the number requests for extradition from the US to Britain, almost all of them were accepted. I think the percentage was higher than us accepting to extradite to the US.
I am quite shocked that you believe this H - I have always thought that the Jewish population in this country is so highly integrated that they are almost "invisible". Obviously I have no experience of receiving any anti-semetism personally but I can say that I have not witnessed any either.
I have seen my fair share of anti-Semitism. I've been asked "Do you like Jewish people/Israel" countless times by Muslim people, which then leads to lots of hatred towards Jewish people.
I would like to see more Jewish people being vocal about the appalling way in which the state of Israel behaves; the likes of Maureen Lipmann blindly toeing the state line is depressing. That said, my (secular) Jewish friends are amongst the easiest going, funny, self-deprecating people I know. What gets on my scrotum is how we are not allowed to discuss Islam without being branded racist. Why is Islam a race whereas Christianity is a religion? My point here (as a devout agnostic) is that living here in Harrow, my closest friends are couples where the man is white and the woman is Hindu (3 couples), or the man is Sikh and the woman Parsee. I know of no Muslim/anything else combinations except one couple where the woman has been disowned by her family. Islam, even in its moderate forms, is a backward looking religion which oppresses women, is barbaric towards people of 'alternative' sexuality and discourages integration. Hindus, Chinese, the Jewish community etc place a huge value on education and betterment, encouraging children into the liberal professions, whereas I get the impression that to many many Muslims that the most important thing for their children to be is a good Muslim- hence the willing ghetto-isation of places like Bradford, Luton, Oldham etc. Does this viewpoint make me a racist?
Interesting debate - another subject which tends to polarise people. H - I too am shocked at your views on the future of the British Jewish community - anti-semitism has existed for almost as long as Jews have traded around the world but civilised societies - and Britain is civilised - make rules to prevent such racism. There is no reason to believe this will change. As for Islam being a religion of hatred I understand that that is completely false. For many years Muslims Jews and Christians have co-existed in various parts of the world. It is my understanding that Islam does not tolerate people converting FROM Islam but even on that I am not sure. Also let's look back at Christian history where non Christians were persecuted for centuries and even Christians who fell on the wrong side of the Catholic / Protestant dividing line suffered. Extremists of all shapes and sizes exist in all religions and Muslims get a bad press nowadays as they are the most "angry" - the creation of the state of Israel essentially sparked the current hatred and the West's attitude has not helped. Equally Arab countries who refuse to accept the state of Israel and preach hatred help fan the flames.
Last summer, pie went to the World Scout Jamboree in Sweden and had a great time. I don't know if Scouts of different religions had their camping areas kept apart deliberately to ensure no ill-feeling between them or near each other to promote harmony but they will have had to do tasks together and I would like to think that positive messages about those who practice other religions came of it. Unfortunately, in the real world, this doesn't get the attention it deserves and it should do to get a positive message across. Also unfortunately, it doesn't make for a good story as far as the media are concerned. A quote from Yes, Minister or Yes, Prime Minister from the 80s, the first part of which is still as relevant today as it was then: "Diplomacy is never done in alphabetical order - if it was, you'd have Iran, Iraq and Israel sitting together which could result in World War III. Ireland doesn't solve the problem, Ireland never solves anything."
I wish that moderate Moslems (The majority) would speak out more against the fundamentalists and proclaim them as anti islamic (Which they are). But unfortunately the majority stay silent so people equate Islam with terrorism, intolerance etc. Which is like equating the Union Jack with the BNP because they hide behind it. For me as soon as patriotism, culture or religion take the form of elitism, and the feeling of being better than other people - at this point it has no place in our society. Healthy patriotism is . I think. what I have - I love Watford, because I was born there. But I cannot objectively say that it is the nicest or friendliest town in the World, and is no better then Barnsley, Burnley, Dortmund or anywhere else and so I understand people in those towns who also have this local patriotism. So. security within your own culture is a necessary prelude to accepting others ? Maybe, at any rate how many people feel comfortable with the concept 'English patriotism' with its connotations of monarchism and so on (Germany is the same here for different reasons). Our International politics unfortunately don't help our internal efforts at creating a functional multiculturalism. It's difficult to see yourself as second global policeman and to pursue a foreign policy which is often perceived as anti Islamic and, simultaneously, to keep the peace at home. Having said that, a precondition to our multicultural society is that cultures meet on level terms without feelings of superiority or inferiority coming into the equation - and any group which contravenes this principle has no place there.
Initially I was going to write on here that the problem was religion - but thinking about it I don't think thats the case as I do think fundimentally the premis of most religion is good will to fellow beings - the problem I think comes from when politics is mixed with religion and by that I mean mans interpretations are added so you end up with the bible (both old and new) and the Q'oran - all of which hold political views and mans interpretations. Not only that but other men go on to re-interpret those books for their own ends so eventually you end up with fundimentalists and intolerance. Religion today has an awful lot to answer for as do politics and when th two are mixed up once again you end up with Christian Nazi Germany (not that long ago), Christian creationists in the USA, Christain sectarianism in N.Ireland and Scotland, Jewish Israel bulldozing and shelling innocent people backed by Christain USA and UK and Muslim Sudi Arabian (and others) despots supported by Christian USA and UK - to mention but a few. As John Lennon sung - Imagine no religion - it's easy if you try
Religion is often just the smokescreen for tribal animosity that lays behind it - a lot of wars have been fought in the name of religion where in truth it has been an old fashioned power struggle
I know, it sounds shocking. It does to me too, and i know, in theory we live in a democracy and it would never be allowed to happen. I'm sure they said the same in Germany in 1933..as well as various other places where democracy has been taken over by madmen. And i won't start defending Israel, yellotoyou, because yes, they do shell innocents, but they also shell the guilty, who shell them too...such is war. But that's not the reason for this thread, so i'll shut up lol... and you're right yello...that song says it all
H - you know we all love you dearly but honestly - to compare modern day Britain with the Weimar Republic in Nazi Germany is stretching it a bit - we DO live in a democracy however imperfect and we do not allow minorities to be abused under the law.
I think that one aspect of Islam is often overlooked and that is it's ability to recruit within a multi cultural environment. The other 2 monotheistic traditions: Christianity and Judaism appear racist by comparison. As far as I know it is extremely difficult for a non Jew to become a Jew. Christianity, despite all evidence to the contrary, has always depicted Jesus, whether in art or sculpture, as decidedly white, almost north european in appearance - thus encouraging the belief in a white God. Why else would so many people of Jamaican origins turn to Islam - they do it, I believe, because you can depict Mohammed in any form you like and they feel less second class in this religion - just food for thought.
thank you Leonardo ...and..i'm not saying now...i'm certainly not saying this could happen right now in this country, but i'm thinking of my children's future, and the future of their children, and it worries me a lot...
On the contrary Yellowtoyou, the problem IS ABSOLUTELY religion. All religions are exactly what men interpret them to be. Who is to say that the hardline 'stone the adulterers, behead the homos' muslims are not the ones who have got it right, or the 'kill the abortionist' Southern Baptists, or the 'don't eat meat and dairy in the same meal' Jews? (you will note that I can't offhand think of anything particularly bad for Jews!) I was listening to Radio 4 on Monday morning and they were discussing religion and spirituality. There was an ex-bishop, who said what I think sums it up perfectly; that it's okay to have a belief in something other, a greater power, call it what you will; it's when people have certainty in the detail that we get into trouble. And that goes for atheists as well.
