We do not know peoples reasons for voting the way they did brb. It only takes 2 seconds to fill out a ballot form - some may even not know which way they will vote until making that cross on the paper. But the consequences of that act will still be affecting us 10 years from now. Did anyone actually vote for the situation we find ourselves in ? If the option had appeared on the ballot paper: ' Do you want the country to be in limbo for 9 months, and then activate Article 50 which will, in turn lead to 2 years of hard negotiations with a doubtfull outcome at the end. After which there will be a transition period of another 2 years - during which time Britain will not be able to sign international agreements as a sovereign power independently of the EU. We also plan to do this with a minority government propped up by Ulster Unionists' - please tick here if that is what you want. Then scarcely one person would have voted for it. Most Ukipers had never heard of Article 50 until after the referendum - and those that had wanted nothing to do with it. How many people who voted for Brexit thought that we could simply leave from one day to the next without any obligations, exit bill or negotiations ?
You're starting to sound like Vince Cable now. I think as he was rightly told, if we went on who said what, every single election in history would have been re-run! If we went on the level of people's knowledge in the run up to an election, every single election again in history would be re-run. As for 10 years from now, you don't have a crystal ball, but if we come out the otherside of this good in 10 years, then it would have been a decade worth it, after all Rome wasn't built in a day. As for the Ulster Unionists I can't even believe you are using that one, even Labour or any other party would have done the same to win the election, after all didn't Corbyn once rub shoulders with members of the IRA...just saying like.
I'm not sure that 'rubbing shoulders' is the best way of putting it - he believes in maintaining dialogue, which is a different thing. This is a long way from actually forming a coalition with someone - but yes, you are right, most parties would form unlikely coalitions if necessary. The Labour hierarchy have said time and again that they would not go in with the SNP. but if the necessity arose in order to oust the Tories then they would be mad not to (not that I am comparing the SNP. to the Ulster Unionists here !). In most other European countries parties form the most unlikely coalitions, but the practice is less known in Britain because it's normally not necessary.
You say brb that you wish to protect the culture of the country, but the more I think about it the less I know what that is. In the 1950s it would have been easier to describe, but today I don't think it is. A few examples. A typical English high street would have small local shops, run by local people. Go into one and you would be asked how you are, and was Mrs so and so alright as she had not been in for a couple of days. Today they have been squeezed out by the impersonal large supermarkets, sometimes owned by German or American companies. A high street might have a fish and chip shop, but certainly there were few if any Chinese or Indian takeaways. Pavement cafes were unknown, an import from the continent that seems to be widely popular. Travel abroad was generally for the better off. A family with modest means would spend the week or two that the factory decided they should have off when it suited them, with some trips to exotic locations such as Margate or Blackpool. Music and film were heavily dominated by American offerings. It was not until the 1960s that the UK found it's feet on this. Medicine was pretty good for it's time, but since then it has come on in unbelievable leaps and bounds due to co-operation and research by scientists around the world. People employed on the farms had their seasonal jobs. Still ditching and hedge laying in winter, harvesting in autumn etc. Today many have been replaced by machine If you wished to open a bank account it meant an interview with the manager to see if you were worthy, and of course this meant that he knew who you were. There are loads more things that could be included such as warm real ale from a wooden barrel,over fizzy stuff out of a metal keg, but it is obvious. So our culture has evolved to what it is today, and I wonder where in this cycle of change where you would wish to freeze time? Plenty of good things from sixty years ago on the personal level, as well as the not so good. Just the same as today, good and bad, but the culture of England has always been changing since, and probably before the Romans were in town.
Isn't it funny how remainers stereo type a conversation or put people in boxes. I used culture and nationalism as a general term and used the word Europe on many occasions. Not sure I've even used the word English or even England, again I have been generalized. I've mentioned Italy, Germany and Spain. The latter more recently re Barcelona, I've used Italy several times too but never once I believe England or English. Tbh all I get in response is anti English retoric but at no point have I waved the St George or Union flag. Amazing really, and yet it's Brexiters that are accused of being racist but at no point have I narrowed this down to my own selfish national interest, yet many of the posters on here do. As I said previously me, me, me that's all I read. No matter how much I express my view point you misquote or misinterpret my opinions into your own thoughts on a specific nation. I love Europe but I do not want to be a one state, simple as that.
I'm sceptical about the idea of a unifying 'national culture' Frenchie. The culture of coal mining areas in the North East was more similar to its equivalent in Scotland, Belgium or Germany than to rural villages in the home counties. Can someone brought up on a housing estate in Liverpool be said to share the same culture as the landed gentry of rural England ? Is there really anything which links all Englishmen ?
I spoke about England, simply because that it where I grew up. I would distinguish between the different parts of the UK as they do have different traditions, which is part of their culture, but there are many things that we do have in common. In my post I was exploring what brb thinks is our culture. He said he wanted " to protect the culture and national identity of EVERY country". Culture to my mind is an ever evolving notion, so unless you think that it is right now and want to keep this moment in time, you are closing your eyes to an ever changing world, some of which will be good and other things the opposite.
All I see from both of you is an never ending list of insults. Now I'm closing my eyes just because I have an opinion. We've gone from child labour to suckers and now eyes closed on here. Wow. All I've seen is anti English retoric! I find that quite insulting too.
I agree Frenchie that culture is always changing. There are some things which are characteristically 'English', which I think you notice more when you have lived abroad for a long time. The Germans love Monty Python, precisely because they know that no German could have produced such a thing. In Germany there is a time and place for humour - in England it can crop up anywhere. The English also have a special respect for the privacy of others, and also a respect for eccentricity so that non comformity is often seen as something positive. All of this is different from Germany where I have the feeling that the people 'judge' each other far too often. I do not think that a football fans forum in Germany would cover the range of topics that we do here - at least not peacefully.
All I asked out of interest was for you to describe, in your view, what the culture of the country actually is. I don't see any insult in that. In a later post I stated that I see culture of a country as something that is constantly changing. I don't see anything insulting in that either.
I never said it was insulting that bit, it's all the little tag on comments that piss me off. I've explained time and time again my stance on Brexit and every ****ing time my views are distorted. I rarely disagree with you guys I just explain my view point but every time there is no conceding but constant rebuke that's not a debate just a clic!
According to you your stance on Brexit has to do with preserving British culture - we are both interested in your definition of that. Is there such a thing as British culture, frozen at one point in time, and, if so, what is it ? Or are there many different British cultures with some things in common - if so what ?
Haven't got time at the moment. But again I said culture I never referred specifically to 'British' - or don't think I did, yet again you are repeating your own thought process on what I say, not what I actually said!
Ok. dispense with the 'British' tag - what is national culture ? Is it linguistic, artistic, more to do with collective experiences, some underlying similarity, religious, shared traditions, racial, musical, common free time activities etc. or is it more sociologically based ?
What I've found since joining this debate is others repeating stuff you never actually said. Ie replacing a comment with words from their own thought process for example British or English. Whereas most my examples have been Italy or Spain. At no point have I said my vote was for Britain or England, I only said to protect national identity, all national identities, yet people's bias and misinterpretation shows thru time and time again. It's a form of discrimination, oh you voted Brexit so your not allowed to sit on our fence or get on our bus.
But what is national identity brb. The problem is, I do not know if you have a car - but, if so, is it British (or more likely German or Japanese. Your Pizza (if you eat them) is Italian. Your democracy, Greek. Your coffee - Brazilian. And the good old British tea ? - from India. Half of your TV. - from America. Your shirt, from India. Your oil - from Saudi Arabia. Your electronic gadgets - Chinese. Your numbers - Arabic. Your letters - Latin. The list could go on and on. And the so called Royal Family reigning over you ? So, if it is so difficult to locate English identity - how much more difficult would it be for a country like Germany, which has only existed since 1878 ?
I welcome fence sitting from people... At least then we are open to consider our views... For example I have no clear views on trident or the economy
Sitting around on fences can get very uncomfortable. The trouble is Yorkie that if you have sandals and a beard everyone thinks you have an opinion on everything - my Green colleagues here are quite surprised that I not remotely interested in the theme of gay marriage. We had a visit from our sister Greens (North Devon) and I could see they were disappointed in us - no compulsion whatsoever about eating meat and often going outside for a ***.
I think it is fair to say that for revealing my metaphorical sandals and beard I too have suffered the projections of others even though I watch Game of Thrones and Mme voted Tory at the local council elections because he is such a helpful man....
