It was mentioned again on MOTD2 last night that Monk is fining players who dive in training and will actually drop them if they do it in a match. Personally I like the idea of cleaning up the game in this way - the fans want it and it seems Monk's stance is generally being applauded. But a number of questions arise: Although this may be commendable is it hurting us? I've noticed a few times lately when our players would normally 'make the most' of an incident but have refused to go over. Gylfi's odd miss yesterday an example, perhaps. Bony was manhandled and wrestled over so no problem there. I've noticed Routledge a couple of times in recent games staying on his feet when he could have gone down in the box. But is Monk wasting his time trying to make this point, and isn't it like pushing peas up a hill with a rake? How many times to we hear "the player has every right to go down there". This was said by some about Moses yesterday (a clear dive by the way but take a look at the pic below). View attachment 33919 Should we just 'play the game' like everyone else and just be canny about it or as fans would we prefer to be honourable losers? Would you prefer your team to lose as long as we can hold our heads up and say we're not cheats? Is Monk heralding a sea change in football generally or is this ultimately futile? Discuss.
Good photo there,that will certainly help Stoke's case and not ours! Nevertheless the replay showed that Moses dived,no matter how much you delve into stills of the action to justify Moses going down. Definitely damaging and "ultimately futile" is about right,we cannot try to change the way the game is played here,we are but minnows swimming against a tide of cheats. It would need one of the big boys to instigate something like this,but they won't because they are some of the biggest culprits. Your question has already been answered in a way,by the refusal of Mike Riley to answer GM's complaint letter containing DVD footage that he sent to him. Yet WBA got an apology from Riley for the controversial penalty awarded to Chelsea recently?
It wouldn't surprise me if this was Rangel grabbing his shirt to try and hold him up Nevertheless, a light shirt grab does not take your legs from under you. It should spin you round. Still a cowardly dive. A good post from Mark (Jack) - London on the SCFC2 Guestbook on the topic: It is good to hear some former refs backing Monk. First there was Graham Poll in his weekly column: "Oliver ...got it completely wrong later in the first half when he awarded a penalty for what was clearly a dive by Stoke forward Victor Moses. In cases like this it should be possible for retrospective action to be taken against Moses for blatant simulation." Mark Halsey then criticised the Referees Association for not training his former colleagues on Talksport this morning. (reference: post 43008 on http://www.scfc2.co.uk/GuestBook.aspx)
Great thread DB. There are a number of points of issue here. First, as the photo shows, Rangel fouled Moses by grabbing his shirt. This would be a penalty if the ref saw it. How Moses made it to the ground not withstanding. Ordinarily holding a player's shirt is the sort of cheap foul that most officials, unless it happens blatantly under their noses, would never see or call. Players do it and get away with it as a matter of course, which doesn't discount it as a foul, just a cheap "cheat" (to use Monk's word). Second, IMO, I think I understand Monk's quest for purity in the art of the game, but in practice it's totally naive. Dropping players from matches because they dive in a match is a ridiculous situation. This doesn't mean that players should go around trying to win Oscars but it's a rather immature approach to the situation when, with respect to the whole sport, all you're doing is basically farting against thunder. Players commit fouls, setting aside malicious acts, primarily because they are caught out of position, because they are too slow physically or mentally to react to a situation, because they failed to read a situation, because their technique is poor, because they are lazy, and as an act of desperation when beat. If Monk were to stop his players in training from grabbing jerseys and committing such fouls, that is getting them to be sharper mentally and physically, better positioned, reading situations better, improving their tacking technique etc, then he would be achieving the primary goal of dealing with the opposition's threats and recovering possession more effectively and efficiently during a game and limiting the risk of giving away penalties or other dangerous dead-ball situations. This would make sense. Fining players for diving in practice is only useful if there is too much f**ing around and its interfering with the work that needs to be done. Dropping them for doing it in a game .... just helps every other team in the league.
I am anticipating blow-back from the FA today for his use of the word "cheat" and generally disparaging remarks against officiating. Regardless, of whether he's right or wrong in principle, he's likely to get hit with a fine and after losing a match where his team stopped working in the second half when based on the first 30 minutes they were clearly a superior team technically, doesn't present well and is not very professional IMO.
When a player dives in the box for a penalty, it helps for the defender not to have his hand on the diver ,especially if the defenders hand is not slowing the progress of the diver....diving is starting to become an art form.Some divers place theyre foot in the "" being tripped"" postion and go into theyre dive , without the defender knowing whats about to take place. On a side note ,Shawcross's penalty stands on its own when he spun Bony around in the box ...but Im sure it was still fresh in the ref's mind that only a minute or so previous , Shawcross pushed Siggy ,from the back, to the ground outside the box and reached his foot around and kicked Siggy in the head.
I like that I think we should be awarded a point after the event by a panel or refereeing experts. It was a dive of the highest order despite your photo.
Yes it was. But, do we know for certain that the "trip" causing the dive was the foul the ref called or the pull on the shirt.
A grab of the shirt is a foul and Rangel has to admit it rather than maintaining oherwise. It certainly won't help Monk's cause imo. But the dive was clearly a dive, not a trip. I don't think the ref saw the shirt tug as it was the opposite side. I used the photo because it highlights the dilemma for players and refs alike. Do refs not give free kicks and pens unless it's a pretty obvious foul? If so, do players feel they have to go over to show they're being fouled? Is it justified in those circumstances? For those that didn't watch the show last night, Shearer applauded Monk's stance but thought that dropping a player was a step too far.
Love that too. Is Monk brainy enough to realise that if you turn the rake upside down it is possible though? I'd have thought that he gave the dive because the shirt pull was on the other side of Moses' body to the angle of the ref. Prior to the pictures, nobody spoke of a shirt pull. I'd like to see the incident on video again, as my feeling is that this 'shirt pull' was nothing more than a 'shirt grab' which lasts for no more than a second. Personally, I'm not convinced that a grab of the shirt is a foul - is it not the act of impeding through grabbing the shirt? Edit: I've looked at the dive over and over now on a Vine. Still is a disgraceful dive for me. If he'd waited an extra second for the shirt pull to actually materialise, maybe he'd have a claim. He's already on his way down before any pull occurs.
Monk should be suspended and fined for calling a player a cheat. Moses fell too easily but he was impeded by Rangel's hand. Soft but by the letter of the law a foul. No different to what Gomez did constantly for Swansea a few years ago. He is out of his depth as a manager at this level. Hartson incidentally made himself look a right idiot on MOTD2. He is supposed to be a pundit ie objective with some worthwhile input and not a one eyed swansea supporter bleating.
Ninian - stuff your opinion. Try and take those blue (sorry, still think it's red actually but not sure) glasses off for a second. There was a grab of the shirt but the ref couldn't have seen that and there was no reason to dive at all. I've never liked the saying "the player has every right to go down" as it sanctions cheating. Moses is a strong lad and could easily have taken his chances on goal as our players seem to be doing of late. Every pundit I've seen or heard reckons it was a dive and if that's right, diving = simulation = cheating. I don't always agree with Hartson but he was spot on in saying that Monk was simply being honest. As for Monk being out of his depth time will tell. No doubt you're wishing us all the best.
I agree with your comments that I have highlighted, but you are wrong to say Monk is out of his depth, your last two managers were clearly out of their depth, and why you are now back where you belong. Monk is a Rookie I'll give you that, but I do not recall you being in the top 5 for over 6 weeks, or even in the top 8, so Monk has achieved more than your miserable excuse of managers.................
The photo doesn't show Moses doing exactly the same thing to Rangel but with his left arm. Moses dived that's the beginning, middle and end of the matter. The penalty increased Stoke's momentum and slowed ours. At the end of the season the point lost as a result of Oliver's incorrect decision, although I hope not, could mean the difference between staying in the premier league and relegation and what it could mean financially. This is why it is so important that referees get it right. I also find it sickening to hear commentators and pundits saying he took a yellow card for the team. Sadly in football as in society there is too much misguided tolerance of wrong doing.
Cardiff City has nothing to do with this thread, so why are you here? You must be obsessed with Wales' only Premier League team. Don't slam the door on the way out, please.
Were certainly obsessed with "The Capital"" alright, its a lot of money ... beats playing in the red, a division down...just an opinion though.
