Can I first just say that I have not read and don't intend to read any of the threads from yesterday - I can't even begin to imagine the crap that was put out there afterwards, so if I repeat anything said by others then I'll apologise now for that. Ok, where to start!? Let's begin with our opponents. Outstanding performance from Liverpool, not just their players but their fans too who were great company before and after the match, started the tribute to John Bond and no doubt enjoyed thoroughly their day in sunny Norfolk. They get a lot of stick from City fans on this forum but they were a credit to their club yesterday, just as their team was. I don't like the guy because he winds me up good and proper but Suarez was described yesterday by my mate perfectly: "Suarez - great player - why the histrionics? No need for them. He'd be hugely respected if he just played football." To be fair he didn't really do much wrong yesterday other than feigning injury on a couple of occasions and should have had the most stonewall penalty I've ever seen so he probably doesn't deserve me bringing it up, but I think it's a worthy point to make when you see what he is capable of. He's now scored 25% of ALL his Liverpool goals at Carrow Road. Quite why the lad only seems to find his scoring touch here I don't know but he gave a second masterclass in 4 months in finishing, as did his team as a whole. 6 shots the visitors had - 5 goals. That is what I call clinical finishing! So now to us. Well actually, no... let me just make one more point about Liverpool. Joe Allen - he was the catalyst for EVERY Liverpool move. He got his foot in early, won the ball back quickly and played it simple to the better players in the team. He was magnificent. I've sometimes watched him play and wonders what he does, but when you see him in the flesh you realise exactly how important a player like that is to a team who likes to pass the ball. NOW we come to Norwich, and the reason I mention Allen is because we are crying out for someone similar, someone to get his foot on the ball and dictate our play. Now I'm scratching my head... who have we got on our books who can do that job? Please please please, lets see David Fox starting matches for Norwich City again. When he plays well, Norwich play well. I don't like playing the blame game but I think it would be ridiculous to cover things up after that performance. Lets first of all exonerate John Ruddy who literally had nothing to do other than make one save from Gerrard and pick the ball out of the net five times. He had no chance with any of the goals. I'll also exonerate our three strikers who played yesterday. Jackson did pretty well first half though perhaps could have done better with a tricky volley. Not sure why he went off but Holt and Morison did ok second half and were fed scraps. However, both players had one chance a piece - both players took those chances. Morison also did well to set up the chance in the first 30 seconds which somehow both Surman and more astonishingly Snodgrass failed to convert. That would have been a goal 99 times out of 100 but just as our luck has been going so far this season, this would be the 1 time it doesn't ripple the net. Had that chance gone in I think we'd have seen a different match. We started the 2nd period very well but that miss, combined with Liverpool's third moments later effectively ended the match as a contest. Liverpool were looking a bit shaky at the back, Reina looked very short of confidence in everything he did and I think we could have got a result. As it was, the scoreline of 2-5 was probably justified in terms of possession, quality of finishing but most importantly mistakes. This is where it gets a bit messy. The scene was set in the opening minute as we fell behind. Confidence knocked early on was always going to make things a lot harder for us. One thing I cannot stand is lack of effort and we saw that yesterday. Failure to close down is the most frustrting thing I see at football matches, yet Allen and Gerrard had the freedom of the centre circle to ping the ball to whoever they wanted, whenever they cared, knowing they wouldn't come under pressure. We MUST fight to win the ball back quickly. Liverpool did that, even when 5-1 up. Gerrard scampered 80 yards after losing the ball to make a last ditch tackle near his own corner flag. We need to show we can do that too - we know we can - we did it last season. Both full backs had stinkers, absolute stinkers. Glenn Johnson completely owned Russell Martin; Garrido was dreadful positionally and in possession. Neither player have played badly this season, in fact I'd argue they've both been very good but not yesterday. Neither were helped however by our 'widemen' (if you can call them that. Snodgrass didn't track back, Surman had his worst game in a City shirt, both played far too centrally giving our opponents the freedom of the wings to run at our defence. Elliott Bennett HAS to be picked when fit. Pilkington should be in contention too but I think Bennett is far more important to our team. Had we had a deep-lying player like Fox or maybe Tettey then the full backs wouldn't have been so outnumbered but it was suicide defensively because of the shape of our team. At centre half, we had two of the most calamitous performances of recent years. I felt a bit sorry for Barnett as he's had a good season but he needs a strong partner (ie Bassong) to help guide him. Michael Turner is not a bad defender but my god is he out of form right now. He shouldn't be anywhere near that team at the moment until he finds some confidence! Just to put things into perspective though, he reminds me of Michael Nelson's early days at the club. He looks like Bambi on ice and has a mistake in him every time the ball goes near him, therefore he plays as if the ball is a hot potato. Nelson turned his form around and I think Turner will too, but we should be playing Ryan Bennett right now. I don't believe the 2nd goal was his fault - it was Garrido who passed to him when Suarez was right behind him and obviously didn't give him a shout. True, Turner made a complete balls up after that and was hopeless for the third goal but he was put in an horrendous position for the 2nd - that certainly won't help his confidence! In midfield, Howson is playing way, way too deep. He is an attack-minded player. I know people don't like it but we need five in midfield and one up front, preferably with one in the hole behind our frontman. We are just so easy to play against in a flat 4-4-2, unless the personnel changes to become more flexible in that formation. I would play Fox and Tettey as holding players with either Howson, Hoolahan or Butterfield (when fit) behind a striker, probably Holt. We should play with width from any two of Snodgrass, Pilks and Bennett. It will give us more depth to our midfield, more attacking options (despite only having one up top), we will keep the ball better with those players in there and we will be more sound protecting the back four. I personally think this is what Hughton has wanted to do all along but we were hit by a sucker punch at Fulham (with one up front but wrong personnel) and initially playing better with 4-4-2 and that may have clouded his judgement slightly. Yesterday was honestly the first time I've watched us since returning to the Premier League where I genuinely thought, "yep, we're in trouble here". It is something which can be corrected quite easily but the main priority now should be getting our dented confidence back on track. The manager, players and fans all took a beating against Liverpool. Its important that people don't start getting on the players backs and certainly not on the managers back at this stage. Anybody, and I do mean anybody, who thinks Hughton should a) be sacked or b) be given three games or whatever to save his job is a ****ing imbecile. A ****ing lunatic. **** off. Apologies for the swearing but these people have absolutely no idea what they are watching and what they are talking about. We have a lot of new players, we have a totally new management team and they are taking over from arguably our most talented manager in our history. Big shoes to fill and different styles mean that some people will never take to Hughton because 'he's not Lambert'. Well tough - he ain't coming back!! Hughton has the whole of this season. I believe he was approached because not only did he give us a great chance of staying up but he also gives us a great chance of bouncing immediately up again should the worst happen and we go down, so anybody asking for him to be dismissed or ultimatums given may as well go and support another club as far as I'm concerned - he's here for the long haul and quite right too. He made a lot of mistakes yesterday. I believe (and called it before the game kicked off) that he'd picked the wrong formation and the wrong personnel and I also believe he made poor substitutions as well, but he is still trying to figure out the best way for the team to play and what his best formation will be. Unfortunately he hasn't got time to keep jigging about with it - he needs to figure it out pretty fast - I called 4-5-1 before the seasons started as it means round pegs in round holes. I still believe that is both the way forward and the way Hughton will move towards. Yesterday was ****; embarrassing; painful... but get behind the lads - infighting only ever leads to one thing, and that's relegation. We aren't doomed but if fans give the impression they think they are, it will resonate around the ground and get to the players. Then we really WILL be doomed. We all knew this was going to be a difficult season - lets not make it any harder than it needs to be. IHWT OTBC
Supers - the voice of reason. Good read (yes I could actually be bothered to read it this time). Although I have to disagree about R Martin, he was one of the better players on the pitch yesterday for what it was. Also I feel that Jackson was our most creative player yesterday and should have stayed on. Discovered that Snodgrass does have a right foot yesterday which he used at least twice and he nearly set up a goal. I would like to see him encouraged to use his right foot when needed as yesterday he showed that while it is his weaker foot it isn't awful
I agree with a lot of what you've written but I can't see how you can describe our own fans that way if they have views on the manager. I'm in no way any where near calling for Hughtons head, but if we were to say loose the next 6 on the spin how can his position remain "long term"? Football is after all a results business and if you don't deliver they're are consequences ! I do think he doesn't know his strongest 11 yet which is a worry, all I hope is the lads feel the same pain & embarrassment that we did yesterday and some how pull off a shock next week. Hughton was my only choice for manager when PL walked out and really hope he gets things moving soon as the last thing we need is to go back go the days of changing managers every 12 months as we did since Worthy was replaced. But radicle changes need to be made for the trip to Chelsea.
Can I just start by saying that your thread is far too long Superman and that I can't be arsed to read it all, no offence What I will say though is that Chris Hughton just didn't seem to have a clue as to what to do yesterday. He cut a forlorn figure standing there on the sidelines with a vacant look on his face, (a la Worthy). The performance yesterday just was not acceptable. Yes, Liverpool were good but the way we just capitulated was shocking. Unless things improve considerably sooner rather than later (and with Chelsea and Arsenal coming up that ain't going to happen), I can honestly see CH walking. He strikes me as a man of honour and will not hang around if he thinks he can't change things around. I'm not saying that this will necessarily be a good thing for the club, in fact far from it as it will in all probability throw us back into the chaos of four years ago. What will happen if we ship another 5 or 6 in the next two games ? That is a distinct possibility I'm afraid, can you see CH hanging around then ? After the success we've enjoyed in the last three years, we were always going to hit the wall eventually. Team spirit will only take you so far, in the end cream always rises to the top and any cream we did have has gone a bit sour IMO. With the type of players we have, motivation and tactical nous is an absolute given and our previous manager had that in abundance. Chris Hughton does seem to be lacking in both of these areas and I fear that relegation is now a probability rather that a possibilty. My only hope is that with the influx of PL money from the last two years we will be able to have a real chance of bouncing straight back. It will be a shame when the inevitable happens at the seasons end and I know this is a really pessimistic post, but I can see nothing to warrant any feeling of optimism at this moment in time.
I agree with most of that Supers, but I do feel that you're being a bit harsh on Martin and especially Garrido. Garrido did have a less than brilliant game, but I feel its for the reasons I gave in another thread yesterday, which was mainly down to how badly Surman played. Surman was supposed to be playing on the left side of midfield but spent practically the whole game standing the centre circle. Pretty much every time Garrido received the ball he looked up and saw absolutely no-one in front of him because Surman had drifted inside. This meant he had to resort to either passing the ball back to Barnett/Turner or just chipping it long. Towards the end of the first half Jackson started drifting out wide and playing as more of a left winger and Garrido got into the game more as he was able to make passes down the line and continue his runs. Once Jackson was taken off he was left with nothing but space in front of him again. The other consequence of Surman not holding his position out wide was that Suso was able to pick the ball up in space and run at Garrido or knock into space behind him for Suarez to run onto. Garrido had no idea what he was going to and as a result had to take a gamble and thus looked like he was out o position because which ever one he went for Suso was simply able to pick the other option. Wonky, while I agree Snodgrass does have a right foot he shouldn't be playing on the right wing if he isn't willing or confident enough to use it. The last two home games he wasted a lot of good crossing and shooting opportunities because he has been trying to switch the ball back onto his left foot. He had two guilt edge chances against West Ham, if he'd been willing to shoot with his right, but he tried to get it back onto his left. Again yesterday, he beat Johnson two or three times but instead of crossing had to switch it back onto his left. If he's not confident enough to use his right on a regular basis I'd rather see him playing out on the left and Elliot Bennett on the right.
Hoolahan is also another who occasionally goes out to the right wing where he doesn't really you his right foot. However, he somehow always manages to get it on to his left foot and doesn't have to use his right foot. Unlike Snodgrass.
Yes, I agree the big problem was wide midfield, both sides. Unless the two wide midfielders are going to put in a proper defensive shift , we MUST have a DM staying deep in front of the back four. If Snodgrass were to play on the left, the defensive problem would remain. The best option if Pilkington is not fit is probably Wes wide left. Doesn't utilise his skills to the full but he does now work back and help out. Another possibility would be to play Tierney on the wide left in front of Garrido. No idea if he has played wing back before, but we know he can get forward and put in crosses. Bennett should be on the right.
I feel we have the players to stay up but at the moment the balance is not right. I don't feel Turner and Barnett can play together as they are very similar in their weaknesses, notably marking players with good movement. Also if we have 4 in midfield I don't feel Surman on the left works, he drifts inside which can often lead to the fullback being exposed and can limit space for attacking. A similar thing can be said for Snodgrass on the opposite side. I can't help but feel a good defensive mid will help to cut out a lot of the goals through the middle. Tetty's looked quite disciplined with his positioning so hopefully he will be the answer. Including Fox would certainly improve our passing which was terrible yesterday, and maybe we should have looked to play a bit longer with their full backs pushing up in order to pin them back. As for CH I still believe he needs to be given time. Yes he got it wrong with the line up yesterday, but you cannot hold him accountable for some of the basic defensive errors that led to goals. Although it maybe hard to see at the moment there are some areas of the game we have improved on from last season so hopefully we will see these pay dividends soon. Finally poor Ruddy he has done nothing wrong.
in retrospect, perhaps i am a tad harsh on the fullbacks but they did both play poorly, even though the main reason for that was because they were so isolated by their widemen ahead of them
I don't understand playing snoddy on the right, does he want that? If turner, surman are not dropped vs Chelsea it will be a shock. Maybe Johnson needs a break What is more important is getting the formation right otherwise their midlfield will have a field day! Otbc (still in hughton we trust)
Agree with most you say there Supers, especially about Fox vital to the team. We really miss him at the moment, also agree about the formation. We should be playing 4-5-1, players suit it more and will add natural width which we lack. I would rest Snodgrass next game, didn't think he was great against Newcastle either and Elliott Bennett deserves another go there.
Agree 100% our fullbacks got no cover yesterday Bennett is our best on right side and Pilks on left. Centre midfield should be Johnson and Fox
Good, interesting thread, so far not spoilt by juvenile squabbling, which seems to happen to so many of the interesting threads on here.
When we were in the hunt to to sign him, it was said time and again by Leeds fans that his favoured position is wide right; they also repeatedly said that, while predominantly left-footed, he doesn't play well on the left side. I would liken him to Adam Johnson, who plays wide right but who is at his most threatening when he comes inside, getting into shooting positions and striking with his left foot. Alternatively Snodgrass can play centrally behind a lone striker. If the late chance against WH that fell to Kane, had fallen instead to Snodgrass, it would probably have been put away. Since Surman also gravitates inside. at the moment are playing without width. If the fullbacks have to provide the width, we MUST, as said before, deploy a deep lying DM for cover.
The way that Surman likes to drift and the way Snodgrass is forced to cut in to get the ball on his stronger foot is resulting in us playing very narrow in midfield, almost to the point where we playing the diamond again. However, because we're setting up to play with two wide midfielders and two central, when Snodgrass and Surman drift in they're occupying the same space that Johnson and Howson are already in meaning we have no width, but because we're not actually playing the diamond we don't have the benefit of having a Fox or Tettey sitting just behind the midfield or a Hoolahan sitting in front. This is resulting in us having a very narrow four across the midfield which results in the opposition wingers having a field day out wide, as Sahin and Suso did yesterday. If we were intentionally playing the diamond the full backs especially would know exactly what their job was. Although playing the diamond would still leave the wings open for the opposition to raid down, the full backs would know exactly what their jobs are. At the moment, both Garrido and to a lesser extent Martin, are unable to play to their full potential as they are never sure whether or not that Snodgrass or Surman will be there when they look up to pass the ball or whether they'll have anyone covering them if they attack down the flanks. Yesterday, our best spell of play came towards the end of the first half when Jackson dropped wide. We ended up playing more of a 4-3-3 with Morison up top by himself and Snodgrass and Jackson playing off him on the wings. Garrido and Martin were finally able to get forward and both put some good crosses in.
Another thing which I think needs mentioning, is in my opinion we are not far off. Yesterday we got battered fair enough, but I still think a couple more tweaks with formation, mentality, selection and we can/will pick up points. I think we have the players and management team to keep us up.
But you just did ! Seriously though, I have now read your thread and it is well written, please accept my apologies I was a tad rude. I'm still fuming after that abject display and just kicked off. No amount of dissecting will disguise the fact though that we're on a very slippery slope to the Championship IMHO, can you honestly say, hand on heart, that you think we'll be playing Premier League football next season ?
