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Club Investment Required

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by theHotHead, Feb 16, 2012.

  1. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    As I've now said three times it isn't true. The wage bill that year was £91m. The Telegraph article uses total costs instead of wages
     
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  2. theHotHead

    theHotHead New Member

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    To quote someone who once said something - there is so much wrong with THIS post it is amazing <ok>

    You have fallen for the drivel spouted by many media writers about outdated formations and the like. That is rubbish beyond belief. There is no such thing as a better formation than another. Some can be more offensive, some defensive - but NONE are better than the others.

    Barcelona are dominating football because they have the best players playing a formation that suits THEM. 4-4-2 is easily a match for any other formation - if you have the right players. It is ALL about personnel, NOT formation, this is what Wenger and many others seem to forget.

    The suggestion these days is that teams need a DM, that is total rubbish. 2 CMs that can attack AND defend should be preferable because they would be more difficult to stop, when one goes the other stays .. and vice versa, players seem too stupid to be able to fulfil that role these days though. Name a more fluid side than Arsenal back when we were playing 4-4-2 and doing doubles, the pundits ran out of superlatives. The only team playing football comparable is .. Barcelona !

    We have more pace on the wings but none of the pact players can cross to a teammate. Why do we bother ?
     
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  3. The cost comparison used was 97m to 131m - Without CL football Spurs revenue doesnt equal 131m.
     
    #123
  4. So so true.
     
    #124
  5. TheBear

    TheBear Well-Known Member

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    This is a nonsensical argument that gets spouted out FAR too often.

    People often say "There's no such thing as bad art" but this just is'nt true.

    Unless you want to discuss existentialism the argument is going to go nowhere.


    Football has evolved, nutrition, physio therapy, stadiums, equiptment, strength training and yes especially TACTICS.
    People forget in 2005-2006 Wenger was getting stick from fans and the press for sticking with a 4-2-2 when teams were just packing their midfield agianst us to counter it.

    We were the last team to win the league with a 442 (and that was more of a 4411)
    Real Madrid in 2002 were the last team to win the champions league with a 442.
    Brazil in 1994 were the last team to win a major international tournament with that formation.


    Perhaps I was a little harsh in my responce but I'm sick of the cliche'd "We need to go back to a good old fashioned 442" or "We need another Patrick Vieira" type post we always get on these threads.


    Agreed.
     
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  6. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure we will break even this year: the squad has been trimmed and we've made some money on sales too. Won't know for certain until the accounts come out though.
     
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  7. There is not one formation that will be successful in every match - even for Barca. We need flexibility, which we clearly dont have.

    442 can work well against some opponents - e.g Sunderland in the second half this season.

    Overall though players are far more important than formation.
     
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  8. TheBear

    TheBear Well-Known Member

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    Of course players are the MOST important thing. Still, tactical naevity will get you nowhere.
     
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  9. The Magic Man

    The Magic Man Well-Known Member

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    In the summary of the link that you have posted it states:

    "Operating expenses increased 35% to £131.2m (2010: £97.1m), due in the main to the costs
    associated with a large squad size playing in both domestic and European competitions and a
    total of 53 games played (2010: 50)"

    Although looking at the accounts, staff costs were 91M, up from 67M the previous year. Although interestingly you also have £65M of net debt, which I wasn't aware of.

    I also note that you have 159 football staff and 105 admin staff. I'm pretty sure that Arsenal have something like 350 admin staff which are needed in running a bigger club, ground and training facilities. This will obviously mean a hike in the overall wage bill, but only by about 5 - 10M.
     
    #129
  10. theHotHead

    theHotHead New Member

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    The Bear .. it is all about trends. It is trendy in football to play these silly complicated formations. Our 4-4-2 when we had Bergkamp and Wright was more of a 4-4-1-1, but that is semantics.

    4-4-2 with the right players can beat 4-3-3 with the wrong players and vice versa. Our last 4-4-2 team would annhialate our 4-3-3 team. 4-3-3 works for Barca because of the players they have. As a midfielder it it easier dealing with a team with a dedicated AM and DM than it is to deal with 2 traditional CMs because you always know which player is doing what. Its a fashion and I think the money has played a part because teams now come to defend and playing against teams that pack out the midfield mean with a 4-4-2 you are outnumbered in the middle.

    I am not saying anything about us reverting to 4-4-2 or getting a Vieira type player, we can change and evolve and we should, we need to adapt to the times, but it is nonsense to suggest 4-4-2 is outdated or a backward step.

    Man U have dominated playing, 4 at the back, 2 in the middle of midfield, one a battler/water carrier, the other creative (Fletcher and Scholes or Carrick and Scholes). Then they have/had wide men, Giggs and Nani or Giggs and Park if they want to be more defensive. Now they have Valencia who plays instead of Park - Ronaldo when he was there. Up front you had Rooney on his own against top teams so a 4-5-1 in essence, or Berbatov and Rooney, or Welbeck and Rooney as they play now. They typically play 4-4-2 and have won the title how many times in the past 15 years ???
     
    #130

  11. No Kane No Gain

    No Kane No Gain Well-Known Member

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    Apologies, you're right. I hadn't read the AR final infact it's release seems to have totally passed me by, I was going on the Fincial Results Report released back in October sometime.
     
    #131
  12. The Magic Man

    The Magic Man Well-Known Member

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    #132
  13. TheBear

    TheBear Well-Known Member

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    Just look at any of Jose Mourinho's teams (defensive as they are) and you can see how the correct tactics can help you defeat superior teams.
    (or Greece in the euros)

    The players are of course the most important thing but I am an ardent believer that the 4-4-2 is completely antiquated.
    Sure a great team of players playing a 4-4-2 could defeat a mediocre team playing a more modern formation but again that does'nt prove anything.

    People are just nostalgic and that gets in the way of judgement.

    The typical 1920's 2-3-5 formation would not hold up against the tactics employed by teams in the 1960's(such as the 4-2-4) and that is becoming more and more true for the 442 in this day and age.
    127-football-formation.jpg
     
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  14. Cant disagree with that. Unfortunately we've got a heavy dose of both problems.
     
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  15. Bergkamp a Dutch master

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    Hmmm. Crap tactics, substitutions and cosy players.

    Root and branch surgery required.
     
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  16. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    I've made the same point on the Spurs board many times. We can beat the mid-table teams with 442 (and it worked well against Newcastle too, partly because they had no-one in midfield). But when we try it against the top sides, we can get overrun in midfield and the wingers are no longer effective because they never get the ball.
     
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  17. theHotHead

    theHotHead New Member

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    That is because Mourinho's teams are very defensive. Its the same reason Italian football dominated Europe in the 80s and 90s, ultra defensive and very organised. Don't underestimate the power of organisation too - I saw a documentary 2 days ago I think on Arrigo Sacchi about the best managers in the world, his Milan team dominated because they practiced situations and what to do when the ball was in certain positions - often without a football !! It was a very physically and mentally demanding regime according to the past players but they said they knew their positioning like the back of their hand, it was second nature, when they played teams their opponents did not expect the level of work rate that the Milan players put in.

    Nostalgia has NOTHING to do with it. You prove my point actually by commenting that in the 1920s 2-3-5 was a typical formation. Formations come and they go, some formations give an advantage against others, but with proper/better personnel one formation might excel. Let me see Mourinho excel with an average team and without the ability to buy the best players in the world.

    In the year they won the CL they drew and beat Partizan Belgrade, they lost and drew against Real Madrid, they beat Marseille twice in the group stage. They got an injury time winner in the 2nd leg against Man U, they beat Lyon then Deportivo La Coruna to meat Monaco in the final. Hardly set the world alight there with that route !!

    As for Greece in the Euros in 2003, they beat Portugal, they drew with Spain, they lost against Russia in the group stage. They beat France, Czech Rep and Portugal in the most boring final to win the title. There's was a triumph of defensive skills and organisation - And not having to play any top teams - France were has beens and Spain had not done anything of note nationally.
     
    #137
  18. ToledoTrumpton

    ToledoTrumpton Well-Known Member

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    A 4-4-2 can work against another team playing a 4-4-2 variant or if you are willing to pump the ball long to a big striker who can hold the ball up.

    If you try to play the ball forward on the ground through midfield with one less player than the people stopping you, it isn't going to work very well. Now a team CAN win a game playing 4-4-2 vs 4-3-3 and may do better playing a 4-4-2 if they have that sort of player and they are used to the formation, but it isn't a formation that you can rely on over the course of a season, to return a top 4 place in the league.

    The problem we are seeing with the 4-3-3 or variant is that to play the ball through midfield and press up the field on defence, you need skilled ball players right the way through the team (because everybody isn't just lumping the ball forward). Finding a CB who can play the ball on the ground, win the ball in the air etc. isn't easy.
     
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  19. Bergkamp a Dutch master

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    I thought we bought one - Mertesacker?
     
    #139
  20. theHotHead

    theHotHead New Member

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    Man U manage to do veryt well with their formation which is essentially a 4-4-2

    today's game proved that 4-3-3 is not a be all end all. We were abysmal .. yet again.

    No plan B.

    No quality. This investment is needed big time. Out of all comps in February ... Arsenal Football Club !!! Arsenal fukkin football club !!
     
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