Yes, the truth. Each side claiming at the time that the other were liars and their words were the truth. Thus confusing everyone and making sure that people voted with their instincts. "Surely these people cannot be blatantly lying, can they?" Of course they can and they have.
Last nights post is what lots of beer and lack of sleep gets you Seriously though, people bought into Right Wing minority blaming because they were indoctrinated into believing it, it's that simple. And some of them can be undoctrinated. Honestly, I agree with the Left, the Left is the way it has been going for years (Same sex marriage legalisation, decriminalisation of certain drugs (Weed in the US), No segregation, no slavery, inter racial marriages), its the way it needs to go, and it needs to go a little further left. BUT, the way we get there, is NOT by pointing our finger at the right, telling them they are ****ing stupid, and that we are better than them, and that they can suck a dick and rot in hell........that never helped any cause. It may seem like I am taking a ghandhi approach, and to an extent I am, but like Jonathan Pie said, Being "offended" doesn't work anymore, wagging your finger at them and telling them they are racist because they voted Brexit, or for Trump, doesn't work anymore. We will win no one over with condescension. And if the last few months has taught us anything, it's that we need to win more people over, it's that the fight isn't done, there's more work required. And I think the current spate of Right Wing victories is testament to the fact that we are going about this all wrong. And more of the same is just going to create a bigger divide.
Simple, because of the alternative offered. Hillary was a ridiculous candidate for the Democrats to try push on them. She is the symbol of all that is wrong in American politics, totally self serving (yes I know all politicians are self serving to a degree, but she is probably the worst example), corrupt, war mongering, completely out for corporate interests and nothing else. As for the people of Sunderland and Boston dicking themselves over with the Brexit vote. The reason they voted that way, is because when they voiced concerns over immigrants and the like, instead of being educated on why they were wrong, and why their economy needs those people, they were called stupid racists and told to shut the **** up, and probably received death threats........ Are you starting to see?
I agree, being offended by everything and telling people that they can't have an opinion is getting us nowhere. We/they (politicians) need to be better, we need to offer better arguments.
The better arguments were there if you looked beyond the headline-grabbers. Anyone genuinely interested in making an informed decision could do so by reading or listening to serious analysts rather than the flag-wavers. Or even, in the case of things like the £350m claim, just use a bit of common sense. As I've said before, people see what they want to see, believe what they want to believe.
And the reason they want to see that? the reason they only see the right wing headlines and don't look any further. Is it a) Because a majority of the planet are all racist, evil and nasty? or b) Because the left called them "****ing thick twats" and labelled them as racist for not being as educated in matters as they. When it gets to that, they will be on the opposite side to you of every argument by default, if being against you is wrong, then they don't want to be right. Think about it? And if you think they are all unreachable, and cannot be swayed, and want to write them off, does that not make you just as prejudiced as you claim them to be, and if no one can be swayed then why bother being politically active? You are resigning the world to Right wing rule.
Stop being so patronising, Bod. I don't pretend to know for sure how other people's minds work, but a lot of experience has convinced me that people make up their minds according to their prejudices and then look for the facts that fit their pre-conceived ideas. Of course the same accusation can be levelled at me - or you, or anyone. Which is why we have debate, but how many people ever seem to change their minds? I don't think a majority of humanity is racist or nasty, but I do think humans are prone to be fearful of things we don't understand, and change that we ourselves didn't instigate can give a feeling of a loss of control. As for your last paragraph: I'm quite happy to declare that I am a dyed-in-the-wool socialist - but by that I mean that I believe society should be working to achieve the best result for all its members, and not just the privileged few. Although I will continue to do my small bit to promote what I believe, I do think the current plutocracy will be very hard to shift. This isn't "resigning the world to right-wing rule" as you put - it's just recognising that it's going to take a lot more time to effect a real change. A lot longer than I've got.
On Not606, none. Or if they did they wouldn't say. A football forum is not the place to sway someone politically, its a bunch of people posting funny **** to kill time at work. You are right humans are fearful of things they do not understand. Which falls in line with my point, that the left, instead of helping them to understand, is insulting them, labelling them and driving them further right. Its the way the left culture has evolved, into those social justice warriors. Every slight or comment is perceived as racist, we get bullshit terms like "cultural appropriation" in which a white person is labelled as racist if he gets dreadlocks. No he isnt racist, he just chose to look like a bell end.
Well that's just bloody silly, isn't it? Cultures are not static - they evolve constantly to reflect the influences on them. If we have a multi-ethnic community then there will inevitably be a blending of traditional cultures into something new. Accusations of racism are far too glibly thrown about these days. They are often used in trivial ways which are insulting to those who do suffer from genuine discrimination.
Because virtually all of the media in this country has a right wing bias. The playing field is now massively lop sided, and the ring wing press are spouting their intolerance and xenophobia virtually unopposed.
The rags do...... But how many people do you know that still go to a newsagents and buy a newspaper? Virtually no one I know under 40 buys newspapers. And its not all the media, its the Mail and the other Murdoch rags. There is plenty of alternative media to look at, but again, instead of showing it to people, and debating the issue, it devolves into a slagging match with one side, as they have the moral high ground, just condescending and insulting the other. And again, I am not specifically talking about this website. This is a football website. I am talking in general. The right wing press have their corporate agenda, in which they want to spread intolerance and the like.....and ancient fossils like Pete Saxton will eat it up, but you only have to speak to people to realise that not everyone, in fact hardly anyone, is racist, or xenophobic. They are just being constantly told they are and it's pissing them off.
I know this, and you know this..... but seriously, the far left has made this a thing. So much that Kylie Jenner received death threats on Instagram for daring to post a picture of herself with Dreadlocks! I mean FFS You may scoff and say "huh huh Kardashians blah". But do you think Kylie Jenner can side with the left now? After they sent her death threats. Its already had an effect on her. Her sister Kim asked her and Kourtney to come to an Anti Gun rally, Kourtney agreed straight away, Kylie said she wouldn't do it. Because those same "Black Lives Matter" guys at those rallies had sent her death threats.....for having a haircut. Again, yes its the Kardashians, but I am just using that as a public example of what happens to normal people every day. The left pushes them away with their zealotry. How could you ever side with a group, of which people claim to respresent that group, said they would petrol bomb your house and called you a racist ugly ****? Its just not realistic to expect that is it?
That's part of the problem and something we/they need to learn. People don't look beyond the headline grabbers. The left sit in the background assuming it'll all be OK instead of getting out there and campaigning for votes.
What we have to beware of is extrapolating the actions of a few to the beliefs of the many. You can't condemn all Muslims as terrorists because of the actions of a few zealots, or all Germans for WWII, or whatever. All beliefs or causes will be perverted by extremists to use for their own ends, but that doesn't mean the cause is bad or misguided. You'd think most intelligent people could differentiate between the rights of an historically disadvantaged group to equality and its proprietary claim over a hairstyle. I think these things are just trivial matters used as an excuse for the expression of the deep racial divide that still exists in parts of the US. Using anecdotes of the "Looney Left" is a right-wing media tactic which shouldn't be allowed to distort people's understanding of a movement which is absolutely necessary for social progress and justice. Exaggerated, or entirely spurious, claims about EU bureaucracy were used to influence people in the run-up to the referendum - many of which could easily have been investigated with a little effort. To claim we weren't informed well enough is, to me, an abrogation of responsibility. It's up to each of us to make sure we have as much information as possible in order to make such an important decision.
well 1 crumb of comfort from Daily Politics today apparently Katie Hopkins said she would emigrate to US if Trump won
And yet people did and still do. We weren't well enough informed on the Eu vote. Simply because there wasn't enough unbiased information available for people to be. And no one knows/knew the exact consequences of Brexit, even now a lot of it is still up in the air. I am not just talking about "Looney left", either. Even the most normal of Left Wing people can and do become militant, when they get frustrated that people cannot see the truth, I know, I have done it myself. One only needs to look at the EU debate thread in the PL board to see what has happened. It has become fractured into two cliques of folk, neither willing to listen to the other, despite all the evidence presented, on both sides.
