Off Topic Political Debate

The following figures show how engaged the electors really were.

231,556,622 eligible voters

46.9% didn't vote
25.6% voted for Clinton
25.5% voted for Trump
1.7% voted for Johnson

 

The fallacy of democracy... it is not the will of the people.... just the will of some of the people.

This is why i don't like two party politics and prefer proportional representation and coalitions.......

Sadly some people just want to get their own way at the expense of others

 

The UK was recently (2011) offered the chance of political reform by moving away from the traditional 'first past the post' to an AV system. This was met with widespread apathy (turn out 41%) and an overwhelming rejection for changing the system amongst those bothered to vote. The actual percentage that voted for change was a small minority.

Unless you force people to vote many will continue to exercise their prerogative to abstain, maybe they are just don't knows or don't cares.

 

So circa 108 million Americans were either too disillusioned to bother or unable for whatever reason?

That's simply astounding...

 

It is...... frightening

 

It's not up to me to be saying this or that country is not a democracy - it's up to them. The one good thing about Trump being there is that they may now interfere a little less in the politics of other countries and turn the clock back a little on this expansionist mission of theirs. But I think it must be reasonably clear that a country which did not have votes for blacks until my lifetime cannot be classed amongst the 'mature' democracies of this World. Another 'interesting' fact is that political parties there do not pay for the election campaigns of their candidates, senators etc. they have to pay this themselves, meaning that they are permanently reliant upon private sponsors - hardly a recipe for democracy. The Americans should maybe remember the jibe they often directed at the USSR - namely 'Guns/rockets alone do not make you a great power'.

 

I'd say the concept of democracy is a broad one which does not dictate precisely how individual votes should be aggregated. In a group of 20 individuals it might mean a straight vote on a range of issues indicates a clear conclusion. When we consider electorates of millions or tens of millions, democracy in its simple sense becomes problematic because what some have called 'the will of the people' is elusive. People agree about prejudices and symbols, but their actual thinking is a mass of complexities which bears no exact relation to the next voter never mind a majority of a large population. Reducing this to a straight vote tells you little about the reality and may be highly misleading. That's what I think anyway!

 

I expect you want the americans to continue to interfere in Germany's affairs by protecting its security from the commies. I'm sure if Germany wants the yanks to remove its costly soldiers and arms from its territory, Trump would remove them a.s.a.p.

 

What 'Commies' ? I would have presumed that the Americans would have left when the Russians left the ex GDR, and I, for one, want them out as quickly as possible.

 

With Putin sabre rattling I doubt if many Germans agree with you, but hey, just let Trump know and he will whisk them out tout de suite.

 

These percentages just show how interested and engaged the British public were over the EU referendum. An impressive 72%, the highest ever for a UK-wide referendum and the highest for any national vote since the 1992 general election.

 

I think many Germans would agree with me SH. You forget 2 things when talking about the US forces in Germany. Firstly: It is cheaper to keep them there than to return home ie. There's no place in the US for their forces to go. Many US military installations (In America) are downsizing or have closed , meaning that extraordinary measures would need to be taken to house and support the troops currently based in Germany.
Secondly: It eases the strain of having 100,000 forces personnel on the ground in SW. Asia - Germany is a launching pad for forces going to Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq, and their presence actually makes Germany more exposed to terrorist or military strikes.

 

On the 9th November 1989 the East Germans finally opened the gates to allow people through the wall, the start of it's fall. Strange that after 27 years people are considering building walls again.

 

Some are even talking about rebuilding Hadrian's Wall.

 

I think what Trump is really after is for European countries to make a much higher contribution towards Nato. It is currently unsure what he will do if they refuse.

Although the UK currently spends 2.21% of GDP, Germany 1.19, France 1.78, Italy 1.1 are clearly failing to pull their weight.

 

Can we build it on the actual border and much higher next time.

 

NATO should have been wound up when the Warsaw Pact dissolved - it now serves only as a device for expanding US influence. You know the logic, you surround Russia with NATO forces stationed in most of their neighbours and then accuse them of being expansionist, and Joe public believes it.

 

I don't agree about Nato being wound up but do agree the US has provoked the sensitive Russians by expanding Nato up to their borders. It is possible that Trump can cultivate a better relationship with Putin than Clinton would have.

Interestingly it was only when hardliners like Paisley, Adams and McGuinness actively engaged in negotiations could they create a lasting peace process. Similarly one of tricky Dicky Nixon's few successes was his unlikely cosy relationship with the Chinese.

Maybe Trump can make the world safer, who knows?

 

I find it hard to believe that anyone can give Putin the slightest bit of encouragement after his bombing of Médecins Sans Frontières hospitals, then in response to international condemnation, the Russian foreign ministry has declared that it ‘has still not received convincing evidence of civilian deaths as a result of Russian air strikes’.

 

Astounding.
So approximately 1 in 4 Americans voted for a ticket headed up by misogynist sex pest who regularly defaults on his bills and uses litigation to bully his way around. A four time declared bankrupt to boot too.
But worse still is his running mate: a bona fide religious extremist, a science denier, a man who obviously hates women; a homophobe; a man waiting for "rapture", a complete and utter religious lunatic.

And they get voted in.

Utterly astonishing.