Off Topic Political Debate

Confession: I had to look up avuncular

 

well thank goodness we all have different ...er.... taste

 

did I get it right- I often use words I think I know - I like to use words that are not often used in case they drop out of the language

 

Unfortunately, although I agree with most of Corbyn's policies and initially supported him I am starting to have doubts. There must be much which happens behind the scenes which we don't know about, but my impression is that he can never heal the rift which has developed between the grass roots of the party and the PLP, and between himself and the PLP - that being the case, he could never be trusted to form a left coalition with any other party. He has absolutely no idea whatsoever how to communicate with the media - and comes over as a fundamentalist, with no idea about Realpolitik whatsoever. He has actually said that he could never have a close friend who was not a socialist - which tells me a lot - fundamentalist, idealist yes, but 'bigoted' also comes to mind. His leadership style reflects this.

 

I think the PLP have to wake up pretty damn smart and realise how the membership of the party wish to be represented. In terms of alternative, I don't want another member of the Islington Set, who would sell the public and the party down the river for self-interest and ego. Corbyn, I'm sure we are all agreed, is not as motivated by those as others.

I think the Abbott appointment is not because of their past. But I don't think she's an ideal choice as she can come across a bit patronising and has not always acted as we might hope.

 

I'm giving up with it all now...

The Tories are breaking the fabric of this country, and then trying to throw the 'Nasty Party' smear onto Labour

Everyone calling Corbyn 'unelectable' every day without justification is finally starting to stick.

The racists are crawling out of the woodwork, their views justified by Brexit and May's stance on immigration.

The economy is crumbling.

Brexiters, in their limited intellect, are treating their 'victory' like a football result rather than the absolute mess that it is (from online forums)

Scotland will soon start to want independence again, condemning us to Tory rule in England for the foreseeable future.

Winter is coming and it's ****ing freezing.

I want to hibernate for a few years Or retire and move somewhere nice...Time for Euromillions tickets...

 

I think the PLP are the only ones who are awake. They want a Labour Government. The membership are not now truly of the Party - Corbyn has created a personal membership - composed of many people previously outlawed by the Party. They are Corbynistas not Labour Party supporters. A real Labour Party member wants a Labour government. That is what both the PLP want and the 10 million people needed to vote Labour into office. You watch - when Corbyn stands down his members will evaporate. No proper left wing party has been voted into government for over 40 years - unless you consider Blair left wing.
Corbyn is destroying the Labour Party.

 

A real Labour Party member wants a party which he can be proud of Leo - which he can identify with, and which stands up for his needs. There is no point in the principle of 'power at all costs' if the result is that you have left your roots behind. The mandate given to Corbyn was larger than that for any other leader, and if you analyse the results properly you will see that even when restricted to those who had already been members under Gordon Brown, Corbyn still emerges as the winner. There is a genuine gap which has developed between the PLP and the overall membership of the party - this has been so for many years but Corbyn has brought it to a head. Labout lost badly under Michael Foot, because the party broke apart not because it was so left wing - to use that to establish the mantra that 'Britain never elects a left wing party', as if written in stone, is rubbish.

 

His policies are very sound as he presents them.

I agree with your analysis of how he operates. It is as if he is stubborn and refuses to interact with the media and his colleagues in ways which help his cause.

 

The economy is crumbling - so is the pound if this is anything to go by...http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...p-bank-of-england-investigation-a7349846.html

Scotland will soon start to want independence again - Soon start to want?? Nicola is in Reykjavik as we speak, forging alliances. In a Glasgow by election last night, in a Labour heartland, a 20% swing saw an SNP win from Labour. Rather than soon start to want, it may soon happen.

 

OK - we can debate till the cows come home what is a "real" Labour member. The mandate for Corbyn is irrelevant. As we have previously established you are the only person on here who has previously advocated party membership as some kind of good test of a party. The current party membership has been created by modern social media - twitter and other campaigns to get people in who support Corbyn. Radical groups have always been good at that sort of thing which is why I distrust them. Hitler and Communists well understood how to gain power by inserting determined people into positions of power.
Let us forget members and think of Labour voters. Labour gets elected to power when it does not present out and out left wing ideas. It gets trounced at the polls when it does. If you believe it is better to be in oppoition but true to your roots - whatever that means - good on you. Most people who vote Labour want a Labour Government - not a left wing one though or they would vote for it. Even Brown and Miliband were viewed as being too far left so lost support. It is not written in stone as you put it - it is just an observable fact.
The PLP represents people who want a Labour government and it is they who understand the party best.

 

If the economy is to crumble it is the result of the vote to leave the EU
Recent polls that I have seen show support for Scottish Independence has not changed since June's referendum - and is much the same as at the Scottish referendum. Of course Sturgeon tries to drum up support - she is SNP. Labour are imploding so of course the SNP overwhelmed them. Does Sturgeon know Iceland is not in the EU?

 

It is disappointing that there is now not a single Tory supporter left on this board. I am not surprised because the anti Cameron and anything that smacks of Conservatism brigade on here is almost unanimous. W_Y has left and he used to argue a right wing cause. Aberdeen does occasionally but tends to stick to energy related issues. SH was but never made arguments. OFH is I think like me somewhere in the middle but does not often engage here. I feel I am often driven to argue a right wing case simply to offset what is otherwise a totally unbalanced set of views.

 

That sounds word-for-word like the YouGov poll - not one I'd trust due to political affiliations, even though I'm a panel member. The Telegraph poll had Yes in front at 60%, but my favourite was The Scotsman which showed Yes as 65% recently. It merely serves to highlight that polls aren't really to be trusted.

Of course SNP gained as Labour are imploding - that's what happens. Strange though that LibDems and Tories didn't particularly benefit, although the Greens did.

Yes I'm fairly certain that Nicola knows that - I'm just not sure whether her visit has to do with Plan A or Plan B.

 

And how many 'left wingers' are there on here? 2 or 3? The Tory sympathisers on here made their voice heard, no one forced w_y to leave, it just fizzled out.

 

I'm rather alarmed by the term 'real Labour Party member'. Also that Corbyn has created a 'personal membership'. Very few politicians are worthy of respect or trust. As Corbyn is one such person, he has encouraged a lot of people to believe "here is someone to back". Of course such a swelling of numbers can only be written off by cynics as some sort of left-wing guerilla faction coming down from the mountains to back their man. But it's not. We're not "extreme". Just ordinary people finally getting someone worthy our our vote. Ordinary, not extreme.
As for "real Labour Party members", my family have been members of the Labour Party since its formation. My grandmother was met by Neil Kinnock (that way round, he came to meet she was the longest serving member of her constituency Labour Party. In Watford. Does that make me real? Does that make my membership more real? No. I'm ordinary. My membership no more or less real than others'.
If this sort of membership increase were to happen for Theresa May, or Nick Clegg, or whoever is the faceless leader the LibDems have now (who is it that doesn't know how to play the media?), then it would be deemed a miracle. It's from the left though, so it must be some coup attempt.
As I said, the PLP must wake up to what their membership is telling them they want. They represent us. Not the other way round.

 

No, not just 2 or 3. Just about every post here by a person not named by me above will be anti-Tory. Bolton is a good example - he tells us he is not left wing yet shows no balance as every post is anti right wing - that's OK and his right but to any outsider he does not look like a man in the centre. Many are quite vitriolic and it spills into the Thoughts for the Day a lot too. To be fair Yorkie is not always anti-Tory but his sympathies are clearly not right wing. W_Y named you as his reason for leaving - and clearly from your recent posts there was no love lost - and it was his choice to go. All I am saying is that to get a good debate you need points being made on both sides - that does not happen here now. It is a shame. I sit in the middle ground - across the years I have voted for just about every party I was able to - I find all of them pretty incompetent. However some on here seem to think corruption and greed are the preserves of the bankers, the rich, the Monarchy and so on. It is nonsense - greed, corruption and lies are equally spread about. To suggest that Tories - as a lot on here do - make policy and support their "friends" rather than due to a conviction that a free market economy could be something they believe is best for the country is naive. I hold that most MPs actually are genuine and do have a conviction for the cause they support. I just am disappointed not to be able to read a balanced argument and genuine debate about what points from each Party's policies are good or bad and why. To denigrate people because they are well educated and attended posh schools is poor. I would actually prefer the country to be run by people with a high intellect than dimwits. You do not get degrees from Oxbridge because you have a rich father - that went out a long long time ago.
Still I will watch from the sidelines more to see if anyone actually has the bottle to speak up for a more balanced viewpoint rather than follow a party line and criticse the other side for their education.
I wont hold my breath.
I think this board is a lot poorer for having only about a dozen people left who post on anything other than quizzes and predictions. We all agree on football so there is a limit on how good or bad we think a match or player is. Two or three years ago this was quite a vibrant board.

 

I am afraid Andy that you are an example of someone who has very strong left wing views and no amount of discussion will change your opinions. (We are probably all very similar) I stop when I read your view that very few politicians are worthy of respect or trust. I could not disagree more. I thnk Corbyn is a useless leader but I respect his political views. To you I am a cynic because I see a movement like Momentum ruining what used to be a good party.

 

W_Y used me as an excuse for leaving, I'd stopped posting on this thread because of his and Vic's complaints, he still went on about me for ages after. He was more upset that the vile little **** SH was being put on ignore. Each to their own I guess. SH is the only person that was stopped from coming on here, and his ban is now over. The ban was only the result of him goading a supermod, but no surprise in his behaviour there...

You're generalising, no one has claimed that. If you think that the rich and powerful don't pull strings, have no contact with people in high places and the Tories are benevolent leaders trying to help the poor then please point me to those policies/rule changes, as so far the opposite has happened. I'm definitely not being naive. The stats back me up too.

No one has denigrated people for being educated, but you seem to be claiming that intelligent people all go to Oxbridge. Quite the opposite is true. That Bullingdon club photo from a few decades ago was the proof of how broken the system has become. The 'rich father' bit for degrees still stands btw.

People have left for their own reasons. No one is forced to read any thread, people can create as many threads as they wish and post as much as they want. The political views of a handful of posters on one (maybe 2) threads won't be driving people away. If anything the clique attitude of the Hornets Nest will...

I'm not a social media user apart from this site, but people that post on other Watford forums, Twitter, Facebook and the likes could easily spread the word about this site. There will be other like-minded Hornet fans, but at the moment this forum doesn't act like one seeking new members.

I don't follow any party lines btw, I'm only a Labour supporter as they are the only realistic bet of keeping the Tories out, Corbyn or no Corbyn. On that subject, a few weeks of positive press for him would instantly change public opinion, unfortunately that is as likely as me winning the Euromillions and being able to escape this miserable right-wing shambles of a country.

 

Only W_Y knows why he left; if he did leave because of you that is his right - but still means we have lost someone who could argue well.

We all generalise. Of course the rich pull strings as much as the Unions do- of course Tories will tend to mix in more well to do circles - but to win power they have to appeal to millions of voters - which they do.To suggest their policies are designed just to make the rich richer is wrong. They believe in a strong economy to be honest the only reason I ever vote for them is because Labour always mess up the economy. I prefer many Labour ideals - but without wealth coming from a successful economy they cannot be put into practice. In my lifetime I have seen every Labour government except Blair's fail because it left us in an economic mess. You can argue all day long that it was the international bankers etc - but at the end of the day Labour governments overspend. What they want to achieve exceeds their ability to fund it. Blair kept to Tory economics and succeeded, I vote Labour when the economy can stand a bit of their largesse.

Yes -I could show you dozens of examples on here that poke fun at the Eton boys - it is pure jealousy that they get a good education. I do not think all intelligent people go to Oxbridge. I wont quote my IQ but it is not low and I did not. However I do feel that unintelligent people fail to grasp principles and ideas as well as those well educated - otherwise why educate people? I believe Corbyn is pretty thick - his politics are OK - a bit too left for me but not so far left of the likes of Brown and his recent rival Smith. You only have to watch him at PM questions to see he cannot handle arguments properly - can never respond to a remark made by his opponent and so sticks to a "script" . That is only an example - but the way he fails to understand why his PLP despise him shows a total lack of nous and grasp. The rich father bit does not stand. Blair tried to get his son into Oxford but he failed - just one example but he was PM and he and his wife had been there. You would have to show proof to get anyone to believe you can still buy a degree at Oxbridge.

I agree - but my point is too many people have left. We have no diversity. You know exactly what points I am gong to make and vice versa. There are too few people left to keep it interesting. I don't think people are being driven away generally - just losing interest in a board that has become one sided. Is the Nest a clique - in what way? I think it misses Ak - it seems to me again to have very little on it other than hello and goodbye. You would not stay on this board for that.

We have talked about attracting people - Yorkie gave it a go - but what does it offer newcomers. It is stale with old fogies like me - I probably bore more people to death than anyone. Mistakenly - maybe because I was the first Mod on here I feel a sort of affinity to try to keep the board alive. Hence I start threads like this, the Environment, Spirituality - even Poetry. But none of the people who even post predictions - and hence are actually visiting the site - become involved. Perhaps I am just feeling jaded today but I find it all rather depressing.

I realise you are an independent thinker - but you are pretty hard left (or at least virulently anti-right) in your views - if not actually in the pocket of a party. I respect each of the posters on here for their individual views whether or not I share them but it still does not make a good discussion. I swear if I did not post, all we would see here is how great Corbyn is, how evil the Tories are etc etc. I am not deluded enough to think anyone cares much about my opinion - I suspect for many I am a hopeless right winger who denies it as much as others deny being on the left.