The EU debate - Part II

I do defend the right to air opinions that are seen by others as distasteful when it's done in a way that allows for a response, to be criticised and challenged rather than just as a form of antagonising and creating division.

But I wasn't in particular defending any individual poster or Zlatan who you were responding to. I actually just wanted to add to the point you raised about the rise of right wing politics and the reasoning behind it.

If questionable viewpoints can be raised, evaluated and then logically taken apart they will die down far quicker than if they are met with aggression and shut down without being questioned. It only allows for a feeling of "us against them", it allows for people to become entrenched in there views and shut out other opinions.

And as I've said many times before, I've supported UKIP with the intent of seeing a particular political goal achieved, not because I associate myself with the views of some of the less intelligent and less desirable elements within the party and its following. With that goal now achieved I consider myself open to be persuaded to vote for any party or an individual based on what they offer come election time and how much I believe they will try to deliver it. In a lot of areas I like the lib dems approach, though disagree a lot with other parts of there thinking. I think they did a good job under Nick Clegg in the coalition. I don't like Theresa May or corbyn so don't see myself going for either of the big two, so I'll have to see what the other parties have to offer or if corbyn/may have gone by then or manage to drastically change my opinion of either of them. I don't see currently that UKIP will match closest with my ideals come 2020.

Presenting people with intellectual responses, facts and figures, in a respectful manner will always have more impact on there views and ideals than shouting them down no matter how much we may disagree with someone.

I understand where you are coming from, I just disagree with how to face it.

 

'freedom of speech' is denied when people are peddling xenophobic hate, dressed up as a 'reasoned debate'

You can't label an entire religion in the way he did. It's akin to saying that all Catholics back in the day should have been denied access due to the IRA.

It's racist bullshit man ffs.

I don't give a flying **** about where your polictical vote may lie, however jumping to defend this kind of **** under the umrella of 'political expression' speaks volumes.

You are who you associate with.....

 

Simmer down mate. You'll do yourself a mischief getting all worked up like that.

Maybe you should worry more about your club's recruitment policy. I see the lying Dutchman is putting in a bid for Cuco Martina; I'd be a bit worried about that if I were you. Your neighbours take all our best players and turn them into donkeys, I see you are attempting the opposite approach.

 

Still bitter I see.

We'll take who we want, same as we did with Koeman

 

Mate, I'll drive Martina up there myself if you like. He's scored his once in a lifetime goal, so we've had the best of him.

 

This will never happen again...

 

Send a cab and we'll stick Niasse in it at the other end.

No offence, but I'll trust the judgement of the man who steered you lot to your highest league finish in 30 years, over yours mate

Anyway, he's still racist ****, it boils my piss that these right wing ****s are being given a platform these days.

 

I agree with your first line. There are limits to freedom of speech. I've stated this in the post you've quoted. I defend people's right to air there views when they do it in a way which is open to criticism and questioning as all that does is allow the masses to see the foolishness of the opinion. However if the opinion is aired to antagonise, or purely to create division rather than to explore the subject then one loses there right to air the opinion.

I also agree you can't label a whole religion. I made a long post to that effect in this thread a little while ago

I'm sure you don't care, but I wanted to clear up once again that I voted UKIP for a particular reason and now that the goal has been achieved I am once again open to persuasion to one political party or another. My political support is conditional and not tied to one party eternally.

People for varying reasons associate with different people or groups. You are the personal beliefs you hold and the actions you carry out to support them.

 

I understand what you're saying but extremists like @ZLATAN will never change their viewpoint. Where I agree with you is that you give them enough oxygen to expose their idiocy and completely undermine their ignorant ideology themselves. Much like Nick Griffin infamously did on Question Time.

BUT, and here's something you have to understand - an anonymous internet forum is a great place to spout as much racist, bigotted ****e as you want without having any real repurcussion. Ultimately @ZLATAN is a coward. He'll never express these views in open public. Unless it's among the minority of like-minded bigots, or where he can test the water first to see what reaction he gets. Because he knows in the real world he'll be ridiculed and marginalised as a racist baffoon.

When I come across them on an internet forum, I laugh at such fools and treat them with contempt for the cowards they are in the real world. Which is why I also think that @Tobes (no disrespect mate) is wrong to get riled or abusive towards someone like this. All he'll do is get off on it. Because he's getting the very thing he craves in real life, some attention. The more we respond with emotion, the more he feels some personal gratification. Because ultimately he can't achieve that in the real world as he very likely feel insignificant and unable to affect any change or influence the world around him.

So you see, while I agree with the notion of openness and the ability to listen, on an internet forum I think you have to assess the person you're dealing with tbh. Like all extremists, until he himself decides to come with an open mind, you're pissing in the wind trying to engage with him.

 

How can you defend the right of this moron to air his view, and still agree with me that freedom of speech has limits?

we should have zero tolerance of this kind of viewpoint imo, his comments about the entirety of Islam were both inflammatory and extremely ignorant

 

I don't agree mate sorry.

Whilst I agree he's a ****house who probably wouldn't have the stones to share that kind of ****e in an environment that exposed him as the racist prick he patently is.

If he did, and I was present I'd call him a ****, same as I have here, and if he pushed it, I'd down him.

I've reacted to him in the same manner here, he deserves to be called a ****, as he's a ****, simple as.

 

Like I said I wasn't specifically defending his right to free speech, just making a general comment. I haven't read back through much of this thread since I posted so I'm not condoning or supporting any individuals views or rights to them

 

I totally understand where you are coming from and I also recognise the difficulty in not reacting with an emotional edge, particularly if it's in person.

But a good example of this kind of dealing with a problem are trumps supporters. Some of there views are completely ridiculous and honestly if he is voted in and acts on half of the rubbish he has said it would be a real step backwards for the US and the world in general.

But when the opposition protest at his rallies by physically attacking his supporters they allow trumps camp to build a siege mentality, an us against them viewpoint. The righteous view is tainted by the violent or aggressive actions which allows logic and sensible discussion to be lost to empty rhetoric and point scoring.

 

And knuckle draggers don't come any bigger than Tommy boy...

 

This is completely disingenuous. Islamic expansion and conquest had been at a standstill for several hundred years when the crusades began...

 

Hahahahaha! Tobes, it is keyboard warriors like you (all 7 stone of you) that make internet fora worth the visit. You are most likely some spotty adolescent failure with little or no future prospects who lives his life from the safety of his bedroom. If you're not ****ing over child porn, you are in fora like this one pretending to be a hard man.

keep it up sonny, you make me LOLZ!!!

 

You need your angry tablets again.

Labour are the biggest racists out

 

You are in danger of disapearing up your own arse.

Prehistoric doesn't equal no knowledge. As you say, there are other ways of knowing things. The first writings IN Britain don't mean thatbthere's no knowledge OF what became Britain.

You started arguing against me claiming how the Romans knew we were here, which is independent of written history in Britain. For history to only start with writing, there'd have to be nothing, then a sudden arrival of people and culture. Writing is only one way of knowing about the past, especially if you limit it to writing IN these Isles.

 

Presumably you'll have similar views of people that preach from hadiths about the quran to claim the death of non-Muslims is more than acceptable?

 

So now that Farage has publicly crawled up Trump's arse, do any of the Kustards accept what a vile **** he is?