The EU debate - Part II

Yes, You can automate it, and yes they will. They can operate their business from anywhere!...

 

Starbucks and companies like Amazon are different kinds of businesses.

Starbucks operate hundreds - roughly 550 outlets from the UK. These are retail shops selling coffee and assorted related sundries. Of course they can't just uproot these and move them elsewhere.

Companies like Amazon, Facebook, Google, etc are a completely different animal. These are global internet based businesses, they can operate from anywhere.

Until very recently, the UK has been chosen due to the language, it's proximity to mainland Europe and it's membership of the EU.

 

But does not pay much tax in the UK. It has offices all over Europe not just the UK

 

They're internet based businesses, they can operate from pretty much where they choose.

The only way to stop them is to block them. Like they do in China and North Korea, etc. Thats just not feasible in an open democracy, like the UK.

I have already said at the start of this that these companies have been taking the piss and should be forced to pay more. Push too hard, however, and they'll leave.

 

Sorry, no they can't. You are trying to over simplify the situation to suit your argument and it doesn't work. On a purely logistical issue, there is no way that they could continue to supply the UK market if they based themselves overseas, the costs of shipping, import taxes etc would be crippling. Also you cannot simply 'automate' the service, that is pie in the sky thinking. What are you suggesting, that all of their warehouses are operated by robots, and delivered to households by driverless lorries ? They need UK based operations to supply the UK market, simple.

Also the reason I mention the £5.3bn of UK sales is precisely because of the fact that they only declared £34m of profit. How much profit do you think is generated on £5.3bn of sales ? I would suggest it is vastly more than £34m and represents far more than 'one of two days of global trade'. It is in fact 10% of their entire market.

Quite simply they are not going to up sticks and leave if they have to pay their fair share of tax and making excuses that they will is exactly the argument that HSBC used and buckled on when their bluff was called.

 

I've already explained how and why they need UK based operations. I'm sorry, but you are showing very naive grasp of this argument if you think it's simply internet pages that could be blocked.

 

Just take a step back for a second NSIS and take a broader look.

We're not talking about a company that's going to see itself as being penalised unfairly. There are hundreds of overseas companies doing business in the UK and paying their fair share of taxes here. There's no double standards here, every company that trades here should know that's the way it is if you want to do business in the UK. Amazon have simply taken advantage of a loophole - they were entitled to do that. I believe there are scrupilous people in any organisation and if that loophole is closed, they will generally accept they will have to pay a more realistic tax figure. There is a massive disparity between paying tax on £5.3bn compared to £34m which Amazon I'm sure accept can't go on forever. Ofcourse once the loopholes are closed, they will mitigate their tax liability like EVERY business in the country, but they'll pay a damn sight closer to a more reasonable amount. There's no principle Amazon is fighting for here, nor any more profitable alternative.

 

I agree that we need to do more to ensure that tax evasion across the spectrum is challenged and avoidance made harder to get away with.

However, when you've got one of the UK's largest corporate accountancy firms advising the Govt on policy that will close loop holes and thus helping to formulate policy. Who then immediately turn poacher and take the advice they've given the Govt to then find new ways of their clients avoiding tax, it becomes somewhat of a vicious circle.

Tax avoidance of the self employed is one that pisses me off. I have no option but to pay my taxes via PAYE, but the self employed can take cash and not declare a sizeable proportion of their true income. Anyone who's offered a trade 'cash in the hand' is contributing to the wider issue.....

Who thinks the Tories have any interest in sorting the problem out anyway? When you've got the likes of Leadsom who subscribed to the tax avoidance scheme that the Chancellor described as abhorrent........Turkeys don't vote for Christmas (unless they're thick Northerners it seems )

 

Isn't the Head of HRMC formerly a tax avoidance advisor for some of the biggest tax avoiders in the country. I think I read that somewhere but can't remember the details - so happy if someone with more knowledge can help

 

Brexit is falling apart at the seams, This ill thought out ploy has no substance as we are quickly finding out and Theresa comment of Brexit meaning Brexit is coming back to haunt her big time.......She will now have to do something not to lose face and what that will be is anybodies guess but the longer she refuses to start article 50 the worst it will get for her.....She knows very well that we must have access to the single market because on our own trying to do trade deals will be so expensive it will make what we pay into the EU a good deal for what we get back in EU funds that create jobs and keeps prices low and hundreds of other benefits we get all over the UK......So what is Brexit ? Brexit is something we can achieve but at a very high cost and when you really look at the ins and outs of it then it is a no brainer that the UK will be a lot worse off especially for the low paid and middle class workers and those on benefit which will increase enormously as jobs disappear to cut costs businesses will have no choice but find....

 

This whole issue of trying to reduce tax by effectively moving profit to the lowest tax regime is one that all multinational companies practice. It can be achieved through a variety of techniques such as a recharge of inflated management overheads, software support and maintenance fees, R&D costs and royalties. The only ways it can be avoided are to have similar tax regimes the world over (which will never happen) or proper regulatory auditing of the companies to ensure that any billings of this nature are realistic and not merely a tax reduction scheme. Judging by some of the stuff published in Private Eye its not to difficult to spot the latter - trouble is it only works if every country is willing to prosecute cases. This obviously works better if you are part of an organisation like the EU unfortunately.
Actually think that Amazon is not very good example of this as they must have a lot of local costs anyway as part of their distribution network. Its the Apples, Googles, Facebooks and Vodaphones etc who have greater scope.

 

I think now is a better time to crack down (not necessarily an amazingly good time, just better) as a lot of countries are cracking down on tax evasion and even putting pressure on smaller 'tax haven' countries as well. Of course it won't stop the practice in anyway shape or form, but it could put a dent in it and bring a sizeable amount of tax into the British exchequer (and other countries where the companies have to pay more tax). This money can then fund public infrastructure projects which will create jobs, stimulate the economy and improve services for the country.

 

The Tories though.....

 

The economy has just been reported to have gone into negative and that is very bad news especially as the bank of England have done everything it can to prop up the economy when it was falling like a stone.. This will mean the UK is so close now to a deep recession that jobs are under a even more threat....Theresa the unelected PM of the UK will soon be forced to call a general election if she cant make some drastic decisions very soon...

 

Oh look another pre-referendum prediction becomes reality

 

It'll be fine. Bad economic news will only affect fat cats in the City of London. Them and the privaleged few with thousands invested. And...er...people paying in to pensions. And people with jobs. And mortgages. Plus research scientists, and universities, and young people.

But it'll be fine. We can make our own laws now. No more straight bananas. Or was that bent ones?

 

Phillip Hammond has said he may 'reset' the economy - or more accurately economic policy, if needed in the Autumn Budget. Though what exactly 'reset' means is unclear. As is most of their economic policies so far tbh.

 

Apparently it wasn't going to affect us much at all... so we'll be fine!

 

Trebs, it was my who started this whole thing off by saying that companies like Amazon, Google, Facebook, et al have been extracting the micturation and should be forced to pay more tax. No argument there.

Where I have an argument is with people like Corbyn and their 'tax the rich Mk 2 plan' which I guarantee will be even less successful than the original.

Do what Ireland have done, especially now when we've voted to leave mainstream Europe and need every edge and advantage we can get, set a business friendly, low tax environment. If the ****ers still don't pay up, then we tell them to **** off to wherever they think they can get a better deal.

 

What do the experts know hey?

Maybe we need a thread asking "What have the experts ever done for us?"