Off Topic Political Debate

I tried hard to remember a phrase used by someone the other day about Corbyn talking about his ability to motivate small fervent groups but failed and also deliberately did not call him a rabble rouser but talked about that phrase having been used in earlier days as I knew someone ( I guessed who) would pick up on it due to the emotive connotations. Funny how we can call Cameron, May and others all sorts of names but get anywhere close to criticising Saint Jeremy and people leap to his defence. I have not seen the media or anyone use the term about him - so it is just me using it. The Media though are very good and ruthless at exposing weakness and JC is a hopeless leader and all sections of the media know it - even those who try to support him. God forbit he should ever get into power as the next day he would be ousted and you would see the real teeth of the Momentum mob.
Momentum are like Militant tendency - a rabble that do not belong in the labour party. They are JC's warriors and a threat to the Labour Party as many have previously been expelled. Read up on how easy it is for a determined and organised radical group to take control of a party. Get in, get into positions of power and oust your rivals.
I also actually like JC - he seems a nice man and I respect his honesty (until now when he is shamelessly hanging onto a job he knows he cannot do) and integrity. I also support some of his views - like on Trident. But that is menaingless. He cannot lead and will take Labour down leaving the Tories in total command. Momentum would rather that than a BLairite style LAbour PArty that millions of people last voted Labour into power for.
Lastly I am fed up to the back teeth with all this current hysteria about "The Establishment" and the Westminster Bubble" - remind me of the idiotic phrases parrotted by theBrexit campaigners. Don't bother to come up with genuine arguments any more - just trot out the phrases and watch the masses feed in frenzy.
90%+ of politicians are probably honest caring people fighting for causes they believe in. Most come from the shires and towns and cities away from London - most are not privately educated. Not having a go at you either Yorkie but we need to stop assuming everybody is led by the nose by the media. Some of us are capable of independent thought and come to ur own conclusions.

 

No surprise - the Labour hierarchy would never sanction a 'birdie' being in charge...

 

I am sure that is to some degree true... but not 90% I would guess.

Most follow the party line and will tie themselves in knots to justify it...... and anyone who goes against it is vilified. One reason I stopped being a Labour party supporter years ago.... all the party line etc etc

I am sure we most of us here are capable of independent thought. I for example question the media hyperbole.... In this supposedly great country most of the press is prejudiced and biased... and the tv media are looking for a quick and sensational story to grab your attention.

I was listening to the Today programme this morning and Hilary Benn was roasted even when trying to answer the question he was asked.. Probably one of out better programmes too sadly...

 

I watched Hilary Benn and Ken Clarke earlier today, and it was quite a relief to listen to two serious politicians having a decent discussion.

 

I like those too as well - and Stephen Kinnock

 

I know it is pure fiction but the current Labour position reminded me so much of a section of Frederick Forsyth's novel The Fourth Protocol - mind you he is a Tory

 

Fair points, ofh. I don't agree he's not the right person, though. I think he is the very person. He is a cogent, calm questioner. The adversarial PMQs pantomime, the posturing, the sloganising (?!) of debate has to end. The electorate is not entirely stupid. I never watch PMQs as it is such errant bollocks, but I love watching the Committees, places where real accountability, but real listening takes place. The party leaders barking pre-rehearsed one-liners at each other or the ability to formulate them quickly may be a skill set for 'Mock the Week' but it is not necessary to lead the party, or the country, IMHO.
I agree fully that we need proper and full debate of government, but I don't think this is achieved by a Blairite approximate mirror image of the PM.

 

I don't disagree with you over PMQ's, it is quite ridiculous most weeks. I suppose my real reason for saying he is not the person is because of his lack of man management skills. To lead a team, that desserts you, then asks you to go, shows up to my mind that he cannot do the job. It is not what he says, but what he fails to do in his leadership role in Parliament at the present time that's let him down.

 

I agree on both points.
It has not worked because
1) he is part of a left faction of the party
2) he is not leading the plp

 

The PLP has more or less refused to work with him Yorkie, which is a different thing altogether - he is closer to the beliefs of the rank and file of the party than they are.

 

It is a sad state of affairs when you read that all Labour constituency parties have been closed down because of vote rigging, threatening behaviour and and takeovers by the extremists. This has all come about since Corbyn took charge.

 

He is close to the rank and file who recently joined the party certainly. Probably also to younger elements of the party who do not understand that a party has to win an election to do anything at all. I doubt he is very close to the million or two people that Labour have to add to their 2015 election result in order to regain power.
I doubt he is closer to the majority of the 9 and a half million people who voted for the MPs who now realise that their jobs are at stake due to the Momentum pressure group taking control of the party membership and organisations.
JC is also not one of the brightest brains around - you may not like PMQ but it shows the alertness, grasp of detail and ability to respond to changing circumstances that are part of a political and diplomatic life. People on here may not like the Oxbridge elite - but as Yorkie should know good education is no mean thing. People taking degrees from Oxbridge have high intellectual ability - is that really something we should sneer at in our anti-elitist, anti-establishment times? I would prefer a clever person to a dimwit - naming no names of course.
Lastly JC cannot lead. He has no experience of anything other than criticising from the rear. I know Yorkie objected to my comparison with rabble rousing but JC is good at enthusing people who are already converted to his cause and agree with him. He is good at rallying his own supporters - remember another person who was good at that? He has shown zero ability to win over people who think differently. Even people like Owen Smith were steadfastly pro Corbyn 6 months ago wanting him to succeed. You cannot lose 172 of your own MPs and think you are right. They only refuse to be led by him because he is not a good leader. He turned down a suggestion that he become Party President and have a competent leader work with him

 

The worst dimwits I have unfortunately encountered have foul mouths and drive 10 year old cars, awful people.

 

Yawn - thanks for the intelligent input Psycho

 

Leo, even if you had restricted the vote for leader to those who had been in the party at the time of Gordon Brown, Corbyn would still have got in - though admittedly the new comers tilted the balance yet further. The rank and file of the party have been to the left of the PLP for a very long time, and we are now harvesting the results of that. Maybe you should look at how so called 'lefties' were treated in the PLP during the Blair years (look at the memories of Ken Livingstone) - the Blairites also amounted to a coup, which dragged the PLP far to the right. What you say about 'winning elections', has a grain of truth - do you want to be true to your ideals but permanently in the opposition ? Obviously not - but if through use of endless 'Realpolitik' you move so far to the middle as to be totally undistinguishable from your opponents then you can change nothing once in power. This is what many Labour supporters hoped for when Blair was elected ie. real change, but nothing really happened.

 

Only with the block Union vote Cologne. If you allowed unions to only vote on the percentage support to each candidate then Corbyn would have failed. He should by rights never have been nominated - the MPs wanted a left wing candidate so many who did not support him nominated him to let him stand - shows you need to be careful what you wish for.
Blair became party leader openly, he retained support of the party and the MPs even after his awful war; he stepped down only becuase of an arrangement he and Brown had some years earlier.
Winning elections is more than a grain of truth. BUt if LAbour want to be in permanent opposition that is their business. I support no party so could not really care. I also happen to think Owen Smith is rubbish. Labour need Stephen Kinnock, Hilary Benn or Chukka Umunna.

 

Ok, loser.

 

By the way you need to be sure you know someone fitting your previous description - you may find you don't. You have to try to keep up to date. But psychos tend to be stuck in ruts.
One thing I would say is that you are so good that although I have been a lifetime believer in not censoring anybody you know I would make an exception in your case and if it came to a vote on here to ask H to ban you I would happily chnage my mind -just for you

 

Lenny ..a minor point

So good ? no.............. so SAD

He could form a Band Johnny Nomates and his bunch of Losers

no wait a minute it would have to be a solo performance

 

If anyone should be banned it is somebody that lowers the tone by using foul and abusive language on this forum Sir, that is you.