Off Topic Political Debate

Hardly cologne, there has been trouble within the party since Corbyn was first elected.

 

Exactly OFH - he was always a risky choice and given 9 months of failing to lead the party this is just the excuse to get rid of him if they can

 

What!

How have you managed to come up with that?

 

Yes, but the reasons which are being used for trying to get rid of him are that he apparently didn't perform well enough in a referendum campaign which he himself didn't want - which was called, unnecessarily by Cameron for his own inner party reasons. Corbyn himself had said that, on balance, he was for 'remain', in other words just about as lukewarm as Theresa May was - there is no reason to suggest that he would have been so ineffectual in an election campaign which he believed in 100%. He left the campaign largely to the really pro European Labourites such as Blair and Brown, which, in the circumstances, was a reasonable course to take. It was Cameron who called it, overestimated his chances, and lost it.

 

He has not failed to lead the Party - the parliamentary Labout Party has simply not accepted the democratic decision of their rank and file membership, which is their problem, not Corbyn's.

 

I think that the membership is a doubtful argument with people being able to sign up for £3 just to get a vote at the time he was elected. Just what policies have come from the membership that the MPs have ignored? None jump out at you. He has two jobs, to lead the Labour Party and also to be the leader of HM Opposition. Certainly he has failed totally to do the later, and cannot even fill all the posts required. There are far more people who put those MPs in place than so called members of the party, so they are probably right to put those first.

 

It is the constituency Labour Party members who decide which candidates stand for their constituency and ultimately they decide which route the party takes, at least over the long term. Yes there were some 3 pound members for the day - but even taking them into account, the core membership was behind Corbyn.

 

I joined the Labour Party, first time I've ever been a member of a political party, because of believing in Corbyn, knowing how he conducted himself as an MP for years and years. He is the Real McCoy in terms of not being a career politician, and given the snake pit that is Westminster, I thought he was exactly what British politics needed. A dose of reality. No party has recently come that close to my politics, mainly green, but also in favour of working people supporting those who need support. No freeloaders, and they do exist, but some people genuinely need support - we have to be there for them. No freeloaders, and they do exist, who have never done a day's work in their lives because they amass fortunes on the backs of others' hard work. Corbyn's the man for me. Blair, Brown, Cameron had long since lost the dressing room, so they were hardly the people to front Remain. If Corbyn is ousted, I can't see my membership being renewed, there's barely another socialist in the building, and certainly none that are 'in the running'.

 

Those MPs once elected are there to serve everyone in their constituency, Labour, Tory, Liberal, Monster Raving if you like. They are put in Westminister to represent by using their judgement, as they are not delegates.

 

Corbyn may be the candidate the minority of Labour voters want but he is unelectable. His supporters need to decide if they want a leader who says the right things but is always in opposition or someone who can be a PM.

Corbyn suits us Conservatives just fine.

 

If you see the Labour Party as a party that wants to achieve government thenCorbyn has to be able to lead the MPs. The members are no more - nor less important to the party than those who want to vote for it. Corbyn just does not have any leadership skills - he can simply inspire the hard core left that already believe in him. That is not leadership. He has lost even those MPs that have no Blairite leanings - he is a failure with all but the core support and some Union barons - ifhe really cared about the party as a whole he owuld go. If Corbyn destroys the Labour Party the problem is far wider than the rank and file membership - most of those will go back to their hard left roots and leave the Labour Party high and dry - a shame for those who oppose Tory politics

 

But how big is the core support Leo ? We know that the grass roots of the Labour Party is to the left of the constituency party - and Labour voters ? We don't know the answer to that second one, but bearing in mind that even in its worst days the support has not dropped below 30% can we assume that the majority of Labour voters are also left of the parliamentary party ? We need an opposition which is distinguishable from the Tories and their austerity programmes, and the Blairite centre does not fit the bill (though they haven't realized it yet). The problem for any party in the middle of politics is that you can lose voters in all directions at the same time. I know that Corbyn does not inspire anyone other than the left - but, what chances does he have when all the media are against him ? He does not believe in personality politics (a problem which is axiomatic to the left), and consequently does not come over well in the Americanized showbiz world of TV. politics, but where is the Labour alternative ? There is no Keir Hardy waiting in the wings, and Blairite middle of the road politics is an insufficient counterpoint to the Tories market driven neo liberalism.

 

The media is against him.... so it has made it very difficult. His policies are sound and I know many people up here who support him.... and do not rate Eagle one jot.

 

The Labour Party has suspended the entire constituency party in Gorton, Manchester, following allegations of infighting, bullying and voting irregularities.
Greater Manchester Police has also been called in to investigate after complaints from some party members.

These allegations relate to the conduct of Labour Party members both during and outside of Labour Party meetings. They also relate to conduct of members of the CLP executive committee in administering internal ballots. Nearly all of the complaints received include concerns about the safety of members at future meetings - particularly the CLP AGM.

This reminds me of what life was like in the 1960's.

 

I think you have to accept that both the Conservatives and Labour are broad camps Leo - they only stay together because of the fear of the other party, and because of the lack of a PR. system, which makes life difficult for break away parties. The Tories have an age old ideological conflict between the old style Conservatism, as represented by Heath, Kenneth Clarke or Heseltine, the neo Liberalist, Hayek loving worshippers of the free market, and an even more radical right wing. Labour also contains its traditional ideological differences, made more confusing by the fact that immigration has nothing to do with the traditional left-right spectrum. In any other country those 2 big parties would have broken up years ago. In Germany it did happen when Die Linke appeared, which was a fusion between breakaways from the SPD. led by Lafontaine and the remains of the reformed SED from East Germany - Die Linke are now the biggest opposition party, leaving the SPD (the German equivalent of the Labour Party) as very much of a centre party in coalition with Merkels CDU. Such a split is only possible with a PR. system - without it the big parties stay together, push down their individual consciences and become party robots (whatever their inner feelings are).

 

I can't remember the 60s Frenchie, I was a mere lad then

 

Unfortunately I can remember it, and it wasn't good if you came up against left wing politics. Unions held sway and there was a great deal of bullying to try and get you to conform. If you didn't then you would never improve your lot.

 

Although I can't remember much about the 60s Frenchie, I think that a lot of the problems of industrial relations then came about as a result of disillusionment after the war - many of those same trade unionists had seen service at places like Dunkirk, El Alamein etc. and had been promised a land fit for heroes on their return. There had been much talk in Britain then of 'we're all in this together' and so on, and about how classless Britain was supposed to be in face of the common enemy - but then afterwards everything went back to normal, including Britain's entrenched class system. Winston Churchill actually offered to buy a pint, personally, for every returning soldier - not surprisingly my dad was still waiting when he died. His own father got gassed at the Somme and died 3 years afterwards without a penny from the government.

 

I don't think it had too much to do with the war Cologne, more a case of union officials taking over from weak management and exerting their power over the other workers. My sceptical view of all those who wield a little bit of power probably came from those days.

 

The print union activists in Watford always finished up with the best jobs in the area as all vacancies went through the union branch. Speaking against the 'movement' would ensure you never reached the top of the list.