Go on then give us the good news Goldie, not just the hypotheticals, the good stuff related to Brexit that has actually happened.
Good to hear someone's optimistic, Tooting I hope we stay in the single market too, but if it's a trade off with control over immigration, my money would be on Theresa going with the latter. The EU needs to start to flex a little, or it will snap. Informal talks with European leaders should be starting as we speak...
We've been in the Common Market/EU for 40 years. We're coming out, and in all likelihood will be out forever - and you're demanding to see the benefits in the first two weeks, Stan. Stay a little patient! We all knew there would be some waves caused by uncertainty in the event of Brexit. It's been pretty modest. Having a leader in place will start to quell these. Merkel and her mates have got to be pragmatic. We're already getting enquiries from around the world to enter trading agreements. Countries want to trade with the UK. Theresa's a tough nut, and I'm interested to see her negotiating team. Gove, David Davis would all be EU-educated and intuitive negotiators.
I can see the downsides immediately, seems fair to try and see the upsides too. How long do I have to wait then? I am impatient, but I am also 55, I don't have 40 years to wait for the good bits. And the waves aren't 'modest' to people who have lost their jobs or cuts to their pension funds, they are very real. Personally I'm still a net gainer at the moment, doesn't change my opinion at all though. As I said to Col I genuinely hope to be proven wrong on all this stuff, and will cheerfully admit that staying in an unreformed EU would have had massive downsides as well. I know it's irritating to Brexiters to have the negatives explicitly pointed out when you have no concrete rebuttal, but I see no reason to stop. Especially when I have plenty of time sitting in 31 degrees in Mallorca taking it easy, and we were told that the debate was about democracy as well as economics. On a totally unrelated point China told by an international tribunal that it has no rights to territory in the South China Sea, where they are busy creating islands and building military bases. No one in their right minds would expect the Chines government to take that seriously, can't imagine that the risk of enforcing this ruling will be taken (only the US could consider it), and once again might is right.
Enjoy Mallorca, Stan, safe in the knowledge you're missing all the rain and thunderstorms here. I think this will take a couple of years to shake down. In the meantime, there will be some fluctuations in markets etc but no great migration of business to the continent. I understand all that Merkel says about the UK not being able to cherry pick - there needs to be accommodation, whereby the UK and the EU member firms can continue to trade in a means beneficial to all. That cannot be beyond the means of man. The strengthening military might of China against the Philipines with the US behind it, is a concern. Historically, China have not been a particularly aggressive power. Hopefully, President Xi Jinping can be kept in check.
I was up late last night and watched the Aisa news and the reporter said that China was preparing for a bad result. He went on to say that they didn't want to look like a bully as they are worried about what the World thinks of them (trade). Funny country and one the World should be watching as they keep building secret bases and man-made islands. Oh f2ck mark Carney is talking! There goes the pound before i go away.
We all know that Immigration can't be controlled by our leaving the EU, Goldie. It was one of the many things admitted by Boris, Nigel, IDS etc. as they fled the scene of the crime. The reason our borders are not secure - as I said at the beginning - is that our own borders agency is not fit for purpose. We have/had the ability to identify any and all visitors, and we have/had the right to deny entry to anyone, irrespective of where they came from. EU nationals could appeal to the ECHR (something we are staying in and will continue to be subject to, whatever else happens) if they are denied entry, but in reality, how many would? The only reason our borders are not secure is that we're crap at border security. Have been for years. Leaving the EU won't make a jot of difference to that. Then there's the money we'll "save". The "£350 million a week for the NHS". That was exposed as a lie even before the votes had been counted. Also, our 'sovereignty'. Where's this list of the laws that were foisted on us, that need repealing so urgently? I've NEVER seen anyone on the Leave side quote a single one. I am seriously believing that this list does not exist, and - again, as Remain said all along - the EU laws were pretty much ones our elected MEPs voted for and wanted. Oh, plus straight bananas, which on their own are clearly a fine reason to cause so much economic and political upheaval... So it's then just a matter of the trade arrangements, and what we have to give up ownership of and control over to win those trade arrangements. Anyone who still thinks that the post-EU deal will be as good as the one we have/had as a member clearly doesn't understand how these things work. Yes we'll get a deal, but under what terms? The EU still needs to trade with us, but they will be sending a very clear message when they negotiate: If you leave, there are consequences. That's not aimed at us, but at any other country that may look to follow the UK. Theresa May has a tough job on her hands. There will be those who view her as negotiating a bad deal, and will blame her Remain views as a reason for this. There will be those who view her as abandoning her Remain stance and pandering to the Leave camp. Either way, she'll likely get hammered from both sides. And if the deal isn't deemed anywhere near secure enough to trigger Article 50? Woe betide any PM who stands up and says the price is too high. She's by far the best option for the job, a job nobody else really wanted. I reckon that she should be shown the support of the country and certainly of MPs across the house, and trusted to do the job with complete backing. Otherwise it'll more likely be a disaster - not simply for her, but for all of us.
I agree our border security leaves much to be desired, Chaz, and must be radically improved. If there is a political will, we certainly can control immigration numbers. At present, it is extremely hard to bar anyone from the EU coming into the country, even murderers, if the court (the ECJ not the ECHR) deems them not to be a present risk. This article by Michael Howard is informative about the loss of sovereignty generally and the increasing power and influence of the ECJ. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/22/the-eus-court-is-picking-apart-our-laws/ If we had stayed in the EU, the influence of this court and the unelected Commission would have been creeping and insidious. We have 1000 years of judicial history - countries from all over the world have their contracts governed by English law out of respect for its veracity and fairness, and they want their disputes resolved by English Courts because of the trust placed in them. Now, suddenly, we have a Continental court shoved on top, supreme over all our courts. No thanks. I agree Theresa May is best for the job of tough negotiations, and she will get backing from all her party. I'm confident a workable compromise will be worked out with the EU members. A good relationship with us is beneficial to the EU - take for example our troops currently going over to the Ukraine. As an independent country, we will do our duty as part of Europe. We just have to be a bit patient at present.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36771595 Blimey! Can it be possible that major businesses were trying to influence the EU vote by making threats they didn't have much enthusiasm to see through? Can it be that Siemens still want to sell us their trains, for example?
To be fair to the fellow, he said it after the vote not before. Now Remainer May is in charge its time to play nice. http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...n-centre-immediately-warns-may-20160712110596
I had finished on this thread as i thought it was all done and dusted. Project fear has backfired. Big business won't leave UK. In fact yesterday a reporter on the business news says companies are now looking to expand and move forward. Funny i thought they were all leaving? 250 is rising again., (all remainer's have gone very quiet on that). FTSE doing fine. A new Prime Minister. No WWIII, even my Facebook is getting back to normal! And what's is fab is the Euro will start getting better just before i go away!
I'm not refighting the Brexit campaign. I accept it. However, that won't stop me asking questions and pointing out stuff that I don't agree with. Just because we're committed to Brexit doesn't mean we should sleepwalk into something bad we could avoid that might come with it. Siemens doesn't need to have factories in the UK to make trains and sell them to British customers, so no, it's a poor example. There are several possibilities... 1: They intend to close down and don't want to destabilise worker relations until/unless they have to. 2: They intend to see how it goes and (as 1: above). 3: They have a contract to fulfill and that factory will not be needed afterwards, so (as 1: above). 4: They can see how the UK might (not will, just might) become a great source of non-EU cheap labour (bad for the workforce) and able to sell without EU tariffs or regulations (including workforce protection regulations) to non-EU countries (good for UK BofP and foreign-owned companies with EU HQs that will, mysteriously, pay a fee to HQ that means there is no profit in the UK or any corporation tax paid). Whatever Siemens plans are, it costs them nothing to come out with a platitude like this. I don't want Siemens to close down and I hope we continue to show them why they should stay, but it means very little right now. And I'll say this again - I am not refighting the Brexit campaign. That's done, we're off. We have to get our country in the best place possible now for all our futures.
Project Fear did NOT backfire. Fear of faceless bureaucrats, fear of Johnny Foreigner coming over and stealing all our jobs whilst also being feckless and lazy enough to milk the benefit pot, fear of every NHS hospital closing because we send £350 million a week to Brussels, fear of not being able to trade with non-EU countries, it worked. The fact it was all lies and we're now in the position of needing to get the mess cleared up whilst all of the 'leaders' that conned a majority into voting for them have scarpered is obvious. I only wish that more people had seen through their lies and listed to the expert opinion they were being offered before the vote. We now have to trust that May will secure a deal that allows us to carry on and doesn't disadvantage us too much when trading with our biggest partner.
Yes you are spot on on this. This was the real "Project Fear". And the major perpetrators of it jumped ship as soon as they realised they'd have to deal with it's "success". But if the report from the Independent Stan posted, is half true how are we to trust May?
As i said 'project fear ' backfired. No WWIII, No collapse of the UK. Wheres Osbourne now? Where's Cameron? The same place as Boris, Farage and Gove. If the EU was not so flawed i may have voted remain but sadly it has proven over the years to be useless. Looking forward to life without the EU. Right now where are those Euro's!
Lets hold off until we have something real to moan about instead of rehashing old stuff all the time.
Osborne is (until tomorrow at least) still Chancellor - where he will be after the new cabinet is announced is anyone's guess, but he'll be there, mark my words. Cameron's hand was forced when the result was announced, but he's not whined, he's stated that he would not be the one implementing it and stood aside. Neither of these 'ran away' like Johnson, Farage, IDS and Gove. Not with the stench of so much blatant lying following them in their wake.
And I thought I was the cynical one, TheBigDipper! Yes, of course, big business is cynical too, but let's not yet rule out the possibility that Siemens simply regard the UK as a marketplace in which they still wish to remain a player, whether in the EU or otherwise. They may have UK supplier relationships that they wish to maintain, or a skilled UK labour force that they value, or, as I said before, believe it easier to do business in the UK if they keep a presence in the UK. These are not beyond the realms of possibility too, are they?
Don't be mistaken into thinking there's any benevolence in big business. If it becomes financially unsustainable to be based in the UK compared with on Mainland Europe, companies WILL relocate. That's a risk we now have to face, depending on the trade arrangements to be negotiated. I wonder if people realise how much is at stake here, and if it doesn't go well, how hard the hit is that UK Plc will take? (By the way, it doesn't matter whether you think it will go well, all that matters is if businesses think it'll go well or not)
