So I think I can take it you have no idea. Your knowledge of France is also sadly lacking. Strange that whenever you are asked to explain you cannot, so try to change the subject. You have been proved wrong so many times over the past couple of months I am amazed you still wish to come on here with your opinions.
You must be so bored desperately looking for any negative comment regarding Brexit, I can fully understand your reluctance to comment on the competence of the French current government or indeed the likely alternative party that proved so useless last time it was in power. Fortunately the UK will soon have a fully united Tory government fighting for the best deal. I cannot think of any of your predictions that have not failed miserably.
Sh@te I know.... and this was a victory for the ordinary person??? absolute drivel... I tell you one thing.... the working classes have been absolutely shafted by this result. At least Farage and Boris and co.... and I guess one or more people on here had enough spare cash and knowledge of the markets to act shrewdly in advance I think never in the history of the UK have we been so misled by people who supposedly know better. What for??? A stupid principle????
I told you before that I am quite happy to have a discussion on France, but this thread is not about that country, it is about the UK that the Brexit campaign, and the mess that the country is now in.
Chinese senior trade official says Brexit will push China and the UK to make a trade deal. They also said Brexit will create more chances in different fields for new investment, and they were 'frustrated' by the EU. The UK also has opportunities for trade deals with Canada, Australia, Japan, and the US when it is released from the shackles of the lumbering EU negotiating teams. Britain just posted its best manufacturing figures for 5 years.
Our 'mess' can be sorted out reasonably quickly, France is in terminal decline, why don't you concentrate your efforts where it is needed most?
For me the economic angle was the deciding one. Exiting will make us poorer as a country and by definition will lower the services available in the NHS, housing and so on. Whether or not you like them, Cameron and Osbourne are correct in saying it takes a strong economy to provide the "good" things - unfortunately perhaps how they chose to spend the wealth was not everybody's idea of fair. Our economy will now grow more slowly. Sovereignty is irrelevant to me - I challenge those who find it of enough importance to harm our economy to name three or four examples of harm we suffer on sovereignty. Equally "laws made in Brussels". 95% of the so called laws are actually rules on trading in the single market. They apply to every supplier worldwide - not just members of the EU - who wish to sell into that market. The only difference we will now see is that we no longer have a voice on those rules and regulations. Another challenge - name three cases of EU judges overturning UK law that the UK does not accept of sufficient importance to harm the economy Migration - if so important to this country we could have reduced non-EU migrants - last year they represented over 50% of immigrants. We had power to control these but did not. EU migration is a problem - and in my view is why we left the EU. Those in the EU refused to understand that uncontrolled movement of people across a continent is unworkable - and Cologne before you jump in with UK facts - I am not talking now about the UK alone but the whole of the EU. Uncontrolled movement of people is plain daft. However I suspect that after the initial high levels of migration from a country after accession many the flow slows to a trickle. I bet as many Poles now return to Poland as new ones come here. So it will be for other countries - many peole will wish to return to their homeland once their own economy imroves. The way the EU is run is crazy - it's institutions and officials are too remote from ordinary people and form their own class. As I have said before they are like characters from a Kafka novel. The spend on agriculture, the attempt to harmonise matters that do not need uniformity for a single market, the sheer size of the bureacarcy, the waste of money and no doubt dozens of other things should be scrapped. Many ordinary citizens in the EU seem unhappy with lots of these things - and due to Brexit some Eurocrats and Ministers may start to listen. However we have voted to have no further influence on that and if the EU improves we will not benefit.
You're probably spot on with that - even in saying that Cameron & Osborne are correct (spit, spit) - but, to use use a footballing analogy that we are all familiar with, they had no Plan B to revert to, preferring to plough on with Austerity when it plainly wasn't working and was adversely affecting the lives of serious numbers of the population. 'Spend the wealth' is a bit of a misnomer though - more like giving it away to themselves and party donors, giving tax breaks to multinationals in the vain hope that some of the resultant growth would trickle down to the masses, when the reality was that it mostly trickled off overseas thanks to creative accounting... Exactly so - speaking as a migrant who has benefitted greatly from having done so, albeit as part of a controlled migration programme. At the risk of sounding like a 'kipper', from where I'm viewing, the major beneficiaries to uncontrolled migration appear to be those employers who take advantage of resultant lower wage costs, which in no way benefits society. And in my experience, society are the major losers. The attitudes we are witnessing today are simply a repeat of those in UK in the 50/60's when uncontrolled migration was an issue - and they're a repeat of those in Australia - a country built on the back of migration - in the 70's when uncontrolled migration from SE Asia commenced. Then, as now, there doesn't appear to be the stomach for governments to offer anything but rhetoric to address the problem.
That must have taken a lot for you to write BB - understandable spit spits . Totally agree re plan B. Worse is that in coalition with a party that are naturally more "caring" they could have done better things and "blamed the LibDems" if they wanted to for their own rich supporters. They have never understood that we are still essentially a caring society in the UK - more so than the US and less "directed" than some socialist parts of Europe. We want to see a good NHS, good schooling etc Yes there has to be a debate about how to spend the money you need to spend on society - as the demand is unlimited - but their blunt edged sword was appalling.Also agree re "spending the wealth" - if you do believe in rewarding the rich as "creators of wealth" (another argument) you do so in the good times not when you are imposing austerity on others. What is happening today? - I also agree with this. Using migrants to lower wages is just immoral - full stop. I fully support the target of an EU where a citizen can move everywhere within its borders - but that cannot be allowed to happen overnight - and certainly not in an uncontrolled fashion - and certainly not in the face of reasonable opposition from the local population.
Very interesting dialogue here. Apart from the fact that I do not see the need for yet another level of government at a continental level, when we have enough as it is, my main reason for voting to leave was that I really believe that uncontrolled migration can become very dangerous - for all the countries involved. The reasons have been more than eloquently explained by both Lenny and BB above, but also for me it highlights what is wrong with government at this level i.e. it is just too far and remote from the "people". I asked the question a few weeks ago on this thread "why is the freedom of movement bolted onto an access to the EU free market", Well, no one really offered a real answer and suggested, as I thought as well, that this was one of the key aspirations of those in the EU government machine, but there was no economic, fiscal or legal reasoning. So why not change it? make it controllable, address the genuine fears and concerns of ordinary people and also the serious issues involved i.e. driving down wages, promoting the black economy, draining skilled and talented people from poorer countries that can ill afford to lose them, driving a rise in racism and the far right thugs. A modern, effective, fast thinking government would be open to looking at these issues and addressing them, but we can see the response from the EU government machine - take it or leave it!
The refusal of the EU eurocrats to even seriously consider the possibility of amending the link between the single market and free movement undoubtedly caused Brexit. They sent Cameron away with just crumbs which he embarrassingly tried do greatly exaggerate the benefits of his so called 'gains'. In the long term they will have done the UK a favour by causing Brexit. They still have to address the issue for those countries unfortunately still shakled to this undemocratic rabble.
What Cameron gained from his negotiations was the improvement of the ability to extradite, under the European arrest warrant, and that EU. migrants would have a qualifying period before they could sign on for benefits of any kind (a period which is much longer than that existing in France or Germany) - the gains he made were considerable. In terms of inflow and outflow the yearly increase in the numbers of EU. citizens living in the UK. is a little over 100,000 per year - economically productive, and not a number which could not be integratable within a modern industrial nation. The hysteria around this theme in the UK. is quite frankly unbelievable, seen from Europe - Italy has over a million Rumanians, and Germany over half a million, it is not surprising that they have little sympathy.
I do think it is scaremongering.. Brexiters kept going on about Remainers scaremongering.... but just like Enoch Powell's rovers of blood speech the Brexiters have used this as an emotive subject... and all over the UK has seen an increase in violence by white brits against non-white and foreign born.... just terrible...inhumanity.......... Following some of the logic used.... Maybe we should expel those who do such crimes ... eh..... ( perverse)
I'm sure we could do a deal with some poor country, preferably where locals are of different skin, pay them a reasonable wedge to accept these newly deported, ex-British subjects and Bob's your uncle. Win win: We don't have these hateful people in our country causing trouble, The new host country has been financially compensated for having their new subject The person themself will have an enforced opportunity to realise the twat they have hitherto been, Their victim in this country knows their attacker has been deported (and is unlikely to get a visa to visit further hate on them) and sees how seriously our country takes this sort of thing, ...who is left? Maybe Narzy Nige could set up a new one-policy party to support... No, that's not going to happen, is it?
