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Off Topic Political Debate

Discussion in 'Watford' started by Leo, Aug 31, 2014.

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  1. andytoprankin

    andytoprankin Well-Known Member

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    Bloody hell, that is horrifying. Not surprising, but horrifying. I honestly think if the electorate knew of what has been happening in schools over the last couple of years, Gove would have been taken for what he is, and perhaps, as I've seen him labelled in the press as the "intellectual heavyweight" of the Leave campaign, that vote might have gone differently!
     
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  2. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    Glad that Gove has been eliminated - can't imagine what he would have been like as PM - someone who knows him from his Aberdeen days says he was always a "school bully"
     
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  3. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    The theme of rising corporate power has become one of the biggest challenges to democracy Leo. Of the 100 most economically powerfull units in the World today (measuring countries GDP against corporate turnover) 52 of these are corporations and 48 are countries - this is a situation which has mostly developed over the last 20-25 years, and this is a grave challenge to democracy as long as these corporations are not organized along democratic lines. Until recently Nokia had more worth than the GDP of all Arab states put together (if you discount oil revenues). An example very close to Europe's heartland is the reeder Maersk Seelines, which has a turnover which is nearly as high as the GDP of its host nation, Denmark, they are also indirectly responsible for around 35% of all jobs in Denmark. It is not hard to see that such a firm has a disproportionate influence over politics in such a land (which we saw when Denmark backed the Iraq war - Maersk transported US. military equipment). Similar situations arise with the influence of the German car industry, or the finance sector in the UK.

    I agree that local family owned firms can also cause damage to the environment - but, it is easier to control them through local council legislation.
    To an extent you are right about the dark satanic mills - they were all family businesses in the early 19th Century - but the environmental consciousness was not the same then as it is now. The main concerns then were sanitary and medical ie. cities like Manchester and Liverpool had regular outbreaks of typhus, yellow fever and TB. until about the 1930s. Also some of them weren't dark or satanic - if you have ever been to Quarry Bank Mill or Saltaire you can see what some employers did for their workers. Some of them had a voluntary sense of responsibility to their workers which today could only be found from some employers in Japan or Israel - how many employers now build schools or churches for their workers ? Admittedly it was in most cases because they were of Methodist or Quaker backgrounds (I remember Harold Wilson once saying that the Labour Party owed more to Methodism than it did to Marx).

    As to the field opposite - the farmer is about 55 and his children do not want to be farmers. It could go to one of the big landowners in the region - in which case we get slurry nearly up to the garden gate (some of it imported from Holland!). Which helps to turn the area into a desert (at least for bees and other important insect life) which means that my apple trees don't get pollinated as well, and life gets even more difficult for already endangered species - so it bloody well does concern me ! Unfortunately we don't have the miles of hedgerows which England has - just bloody big fields and bloody big disconnected forests.
     
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  4. andytoprankin

    andytoprankin Well-Known Member

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    Super article in 'The Independent' about Gove which includes this splendid analysis:
    Our 'democracy' is a bloody funny thing sometimes. Will this deliver the best option to lead our country? I don't think so.
     
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  5. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure that Democracy is not overrated - but that is another topic. It is up to countries worldwide - including the likes of China - to regulate multinational corporations. If people believe their democracy is being threatened they must not just whinge but must act. But perhaps the people of Denmark supported the Iraq war if they benefitted - you would have to ask them - it is their choice. Arab GDP without Oil ????? How about UK GDP without Services -Arab states HAVE oil.
    Environmental control is not in my opinion best controlled locally - that then leaves decisions in the hands of people who may know or care nothing about it. The environment needs a much broader perspective - national and international regulation. Agree to an extent about the social and religious perspectives of some 19C owners like Cadbury and Rowntree - seems to me many people were "nicer" in those days - if only they had had more wealth and less poverty. Unfortunately there is also a very dark side to religion - another topic though.
    If you or a collective feel strongly about the field - buy it yourselves - if not the owner subject to laws can use it as they want.
     
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  6. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    The task of reducing Co2 emissions, or environmental protection generally, cannot be left to centralized governments Leo - everyone has to do their bit, so we work from the personal level, the regional level, and the macro level simultaneously. It is not just that larger areas like the EU. or countries are responsible for their carbon footprint, but it is also the responsibility of towns, and individuals to work out their own impact on the environment. I cannot understand how people can say that the individual is responsible for his own circumstances in economic terms - but not in environmental ones.
    We will inevitably disagree on the subject of ownership - if I own eg. a book, then I have the right to do whatever I like with it - I can burn it, read it, eat it or whatever. But the same is not true of land - the World does not belong to us Leo, so how can individual parts of it really belong to anyone ? The laws of man have no relevence for nature whatsoever.
     
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  7. wear_yellow

    wear_yellow Well-Known Member

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    Well they have done OK with reducing CFC's - I read this week that the whole in the ozone layer is reducing rapidly.
     
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  8. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    However the referendum debate has generated just so much damaging 'hot air' ;)
     
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  9. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    As the two hopefuls for PM were both educated at grammar schools it would seem likely that a resurgence of this selective system could happen. I have never understood why the Conservative leaders over the last 10 years abandoned the concept of grammar schools as they remain very popular with grass root Tory supporters.

    The rout of the Eton boys will be complete when Osborne losses his job in the forthcoming cabinet shuffle, The Tory Party should be all about enterprise and opportunity not privilege and knowing the right people.
     
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  10. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I believe that it is a cascade down system. World Environmental Conventions set out what we should be aiming at and then you devolve responsibility down to the likes of the EU, the UK, Councils, Parishes, Companies and Individuals to do their bit. You cannot expect an individual to know what level of pollution he or she can create safely - and it is no good saying "none". Of course the individual should be responsible but needs to know how and what to achieve.
    We will not agree on ownership - you are correct. However I cannot destroy land. I have forgotten the name of the crater they showed last week caused by the first bomb of the Somme - but it is now a beautiful green place. Where once there were slag heaps and dirty factories there are now often lakes and parks. Even the environs of Chernobyl - as extreme an example as you can get - now have massive bio-diversity - so the Earth repairs itself from every disaster mankind can create. Believe me - mankind will eventually die out on this planet and it will survive and prosper for millions of years thereafter. Ask the dinosaurs. While mankind is mortal he never actually owns anything - he borrows it at most for a lifetime. Worry less.
     
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  11. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I thought you were a fan of the Eton boys?
     
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  12. Toby

    Toby GC's Life Coach

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    He'll just say whatever suits his agenda at the time to try and wind people up on here...
     
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  13. wear_yellow

    wear_yellow Well-Known Member

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    I am sure some University Bod will write a research paper on it and announce that global warming has started again!
     
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  14. andytoprankin

    andytoprankin Well-Known Member

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    Mainly

    please log in to view this image
     
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  15. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    Every individual has the ability to calculate their own Co2 footprint per year Leo. That of Engelskirchen (the town where I live) has done this, and I have also done my own - anyone who has access to a computer for 5 minutes can do it.
     
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  16. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    I certainly much preferred Cameron and Osborne to Miliband, Corbyn and McDonnell. To broaden the appeal of the natural controlling party in the UK, the Tories, it is necessary to remove the elitist tag. I often wonder what the Tory Party would be like if David Davis had won the leadership contest.

    Grammar schools have been excellent for working class families with bright children, it gives them an opportunity for the best possible education.
     
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  17. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    But in your dream there should not be computers or other high tech equipment. The calculations you speak of have presumably been created at a wider level and then adapted for indiviuals and small communites. Unless there is someone to tell you that 10,000 is good or bad what use is it to know that Enelskirkchen stands at 8,988?
     
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  18. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    and what did failure to get into an elite grammar school do for those children who failed to be admitted to one?
     
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  19. andytoprankin

    andytoprankin Well-Known Member

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    He turned into bile-filled troll on Watford Not606, I would've thought that was obvious.
     
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  20. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    I failed to get into the grammar school system, so did Alan Sugar and many other entrepreneurs. What it did was get off my backside and compete.
     
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