Off Topic The Politics Thread

[sb_73]

Anti Brexit rallies going on in London and York. Honestly, you have a right to express yourself but please don't think it makes any difference, except invite another bout of 'bad losers' bollocks. Give it a rest and do something useful.

What struck me more was the quality of the BBC online article on this news. It claimed 46 million people had voted in the referendum. No they didn't, that many may have been eligible to vote, but only about 34 million actually did. And then it described Tory MEP Daniel Hannan as a UKIP MEP. Now this made me smile, but pretty poor quality stuff.

Also just heard on the radio a Swiss businessman describing the Swiss model - 120 bilateral trade agreements which took 45 years to put in place. Oh dear. And the one with the EU is at risk because of a recent (yet to be implemented) referendum on immigration. He also reckoned the WTO fall back was a very bad option because it is so basic - as it covers 130 plus countries of very varying economies and can't keep up with the modern world. So that leaves Norway/EEA, which all of the business people in the discussion would prefer, but none thought would work because of free movement of people.

What I didn't know is that the volume of paperwork involved in EFTA trading v fully in the single market is immense. None of this detail, which probably wouldn't change many minds but I find interesting, was raised by those ****ers in the Remain campaign, or covered by the media. Regardless of the result, which may have been the same, I do think we have been badly let down by both politicians and the media in the last few months.

The NZ government has kindly offered us it's trade negotiators to help out, a generous gesture. They achieved a notable first in a free trade agreement with China. NZ exports to China - milk powder, butter, cheese, wood and wood products, meat. Imports - electronics, clothes, furniture, toys.

 

[ELLERS]

Anti Brexit rallies going on in London and York. Honestly, you have a right to express yourself but please don't think it makes any difference, except invite another bout of 'bad losers' bollocks. Give it a rest and do something useful.

Agree everyone has the right to protest as long as it's peaceful. Also agree that it doesn't make a difference. As one Brexiter said today "come back when you have 17M".
The funniest thing i heard today was a woman on the radio who was going to the march saying "I believe in democracy that's why i am on this march so we can overturn the vote". And i thought it was only the Brexit lot that was thick?

 

[sb_73]

Agree everyone has the right to protest as long as it's peaceful. Also agree that it doesn't make a difference. As one Brexiter said today "come back when you have 17M".
The funniest thing i heard today was a woman on the radio who was going to the march saying "I believe in democracy that's why i am on this march so we can overturn the vote". And i thought it was only the Brexit lot that was thick?

Actually they only need under 700,000 to change their mind. And a new referendum.

 

[ELLERS]

Britain has been able to deport 6,900 criminals since 2010, because of the European Arrest Warrant - it will be much more difficult to do this outside of the EU.

That is incorrect.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Essentially when we talk about 'controlled' immigration we are talking mostly about Poland - because Poland has 3-4 times more immigrants in the UK. than the next placed European country. There has never really been 'uncontrolled`immigration from countries like Germany, France, the Netherlands etc. So the long term goal of the EU. must be to raise living standards in those East European countries which are suffering from a depleting population (otherwise it becomes a vicious circle because nobody invests in countries where everybody is leaving). The ex GDR is the only area of the former eastern block where living standards have really risen - for obvious reasons, namely that Germany introduced a solidarity tax, and was able to kick start the economy there with their own version of the Marshall Plan. Surely only something broadly ecquivalent to a Marshall Plan can raise Eastern European living standards up to Western levels - which is the only real solution to the freedom of movement problem. If Britain starts controlling Eastern European immigration then it creates proportionally more pressure on the social systems of countries like Germany, France etc.

I agree the need to raise living standards in the former eastern block countries. I can't see that it helps if the UK takes their talent, and a huge intake drives down the wages of UK workers.

 

[ELLERS]

Actually they only need under 700,000 to change their mind. And a new referendum.

Yes but that is not going to happen. We voted and Brexit won. We all need to move on.

 

[sb_73]

Yes but that is not going to happen. We voted and Brexit won. We all need to move on.

I know Ellers, I was being naughty.

I agree the need to raise living standards in the former eastern block countries. I can't see that it helps if the UK takes their talent, and a huge intake drives down the wages of UK workers.

its already happening, the average income difference between the UK and Poland has halved in the last 10 years. Their talent needs capital to thrive in their own countries, and the migrants send it back. But that is all history as far as the UK is concerned, no need to get back into this ****, we live in a new future now. Interestingly Paul Nuttall of UKIP used exactly the same argument about Bulgarian and Rumainian migrants "their brightest and best should stay at home to build their own countries". Especially the 55,000 EU migrants working in the NHS I suppose.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Anti Brexit rallies going on in London and York. Honestly, you have a right to express yourself but please don't think it makes any difference, except invite another bout of 'bad losers' bollocks. Give it a rest and do something useful.

What struck me more was the quality of the BBC online article on this news. It claimed 46 million people had voted in the referendum. No they didn't, that many may have been eligible to vote, but only about 34 million actually did. And then it described Tory MEP Daniel Hannan as a UKIP MEP. Now this made me smile, but pretty poor quality stuff.

Also just heard on the radio a Swiss businessman describing the Swiss model - 120 bilateral trade agreements which took 45 years to put in place. Oh dear. And the one with the EU is at risk because of a recent (yet to be implemented) referendum on immigration. He also reckoned the WTO fall back was a very bad option because it is so basic - as it covers 130 plus countries of very varying economies and can't keep up with the modern world. So that leaves Norway/EEA, which all of the business people in the discussion would prefer, but none thought would work because of free movement of people.

What I didn't know is that the volume of paperwork involved in EFTA trading v fully in the single market is immense. None of this detail, which probably wouldn't change many minds but I find interesting, was raised by those ****ers in the Remain campaign, or covered by the media. Regardless of the result, which may have been the same, I do think we have been badly let down by both politicians and the media in the last few months.

The NZ government has kindly offered us it's trade negotiators to help out, a generous gesture. They achieved a notable first in a free trade agreement with China. NZ exports to China - milk powder, butter, cheese, wood and wood products, meat. Imports - electronics, clothes, furniture, toys.

I agree, Stan, that we should have been informed better of the options if out of the single market. The ramifications of the WTO rules are not completely clear to me, and no one seemed to be putting out indisputable facts on this aspect. I strongly doubt we'll end up with this however, as it damages all parties.

 

[ELLERS]

I know Ellers, I was being naughty.

fair play to you Sb you have debated really well on this thread.
I think at the end of the day we all want the best for our country and we all have differing views.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I know Ellers, I was being naughty.

its already happening, the average income difference between the UK and Poland has halved in the last 10 years. Their talent needs capital to thrive in their own countries, and the migrants send it back. But that is all history as far as the UK is concerned, no need to get back into this ****, we live in a new future now. Interestingly Paul Nuttall of UKIP used exactly the same argument about Bulgarian and Rumainian migrants "their brightest and best should stay at home to build their own countries". Especially the 55,000 EU migrants working in the NHS I suppose.

I don't think the Nuttall argument is wrong when faced with an exodus from a poor country.

On the NHS, I've heard of concerns from staff that EU migrants working in the NHS cannot be required to improve their English language under EU rules leading to concerns for patient safety. This doesn't apply to non-EU immigrants.

"Rumainian" - I see what you did there

 

[colognehornet]

I know Ellers, I was being naughty.

its already happening, the average income difference between the UK and Poland has halved in the last 10 years. Their talent needs capital to thrive in their own countries, and the migrants send it back. But that is all history as far as the UK is concerned, no need to get back into this ****, we live in a new future now. Interestingly Paul Nuttall of UKIP used exactly the same argument about Bulgarian and Rumainian migrants "their brightest and best should stay at home to build their own countries". Especially the 55,000 EU migrants working in the NHS I suppose.

We do not live in a new future....not yet. There are many obstacles to be crossed before Brexit can be claimed as a fact. Firstly the legal validity of the referendum itself has to be established. A referendum can only be called in the national interest - not in the interests of one political party, the second problem is that Brexit does not only affect the legal status of Britain, but every person who carries a British Passport (wherever they happen to be) - it may have escaped your notice that around half of Britain's 6 million strong ex pat population were disenfranchised for this. The legality of the last point has not yet been tested - but, assuming that the majority of lawyers were for remaining, it soon will be. I have heard much about democracy on this thread, and about how Parliament would not dare to block Brexit - well I would expect that every member of the House of Commons votes on their own conscience here ie. is it in the national interests to leave the EU ? This what we pay them to do, and this is the parliamentary democracy we live in. Their decision would then have to be ratified by the House of Lords and signed by the Queen. This is the mess we get into when a nation which is used to representative democracy dabbles in an experiment in direct democracy, without any of the safeguards which countries like Switzerland build into their referendums. Millions of people could wake up with a completely new status because one politician, playing inner party politics, called an unnecessary referendum as an election manouvre. It is no wonder that people are angry, and if I were in England I would be demonstrating too - doubly so because I am affected by it but was not asked for my opinion.

 

[ELLERS]

. There are many obstacles to be crossed before Brexit can be claimed as a fact. Firstly the legal validity of the referendum itself has to be established. A referendum can only be called in the national interest - not in the interests of one political party,

zzzzzzzzzzzz
What a load of old tosh! The referendum went to parliament (you know the ones that represent the people)? It was a 6-1 vote for the referendum. What's the 'legal validity' you are talking about? It was passed by government and the people voted. It's called democracy, you need to look up the word and understand it.
All these marches, debates, petitions, London being in Europe are all Fantasy island stuff. Get over it and move on because there will be no u turn.

 

[colognehornet]

zzzzzzzzzzzz
What a load of old tosh! The referendum went to parliament (you know the ones that represent the people)? It was a 6-1 vote for the referendum. What's the 'legal validity' you are talking about? It was passed by government and the people voted. It's called democracy, you need to look up the word and understand it.
All these marches, debates, petitions, London being in Europe are all Fantasy island stuff. Get over it and move on because there will be no u turn.

All the people didn't vote - I didn't along with millions of others who were affected by it. The loss of EU. status could mean millions of Britons suddenly having second class status in other countries, yet they had no say in it - if you call that democratic, I don't - and, because of that disenfranchisement (a practice not done by any other EU. country) I do not accept the result o.k. !

 

[Stroller]

zzzzzzzzzzzz
What a load of old tosh! The referendum went to parliament (you know the ones that represent the people)? It was a 6-1 vote for the referendum. What's the 'legal validity' you are talking about? It was passed by government and the people voted. It's called democracy, you need to look up the word and understand it.
All these marches, debates, petitions, London being in Europe are all Fantasy island stuff. Get over it and move on because there will be no u turn.

That was where you were supposed to post that picture of a kid crying Ellers.

I don't for a minute think that it will happen, but it would be be perfectly democratic for parliament to decide that the referendum result was too close to be definitive and that leaving the Single Market would be economic madness.

 

[sb_73]

We do not live in a new future....not yet. There are many obstacles to be crossed before Brexit can be claimed as a fact. Firstly the legal validity of the referendum itself has to be established. A referendum can only be called in the national interest - not in the interests of one political party, the second problem is that Brexit does not only affect the legal status of Britain, but every person who carries a British Passport (wherever they happen to be) - it may have escaped your notice that around half of Britain's 6 million strong ex pat population were disenfranchised for this. The legality of the last point has not yet been tested - but, assuming that the majority of lawyers were for remaining, it soon will be. I have heard much about democracy on this thread, and about how Parliament would not dare to block Brexit - well I would expect that every member of the House of Commons votes on their own conscience here ie. is it in the national interests to leave the EU ? This what we pay them to do, and this is the parliamentary democracy we live in. Their decision would then have to be ratified by the House of Lords and signed by the Queen. This is the mess we get into when a nation which is used to representative democracy dabbles in an experiment in direct democracy, without any of the safeguards which countries like Switzerland build into their referendums. Millions of people could wake up with a completely new status because one politician, playing inner party politics, called an unnecessary referendum as an election manouvre. It is no wonder that people are angry, and if I were in England I would be demonstrating too - doubly so because I am affected by it but was not asked for my opinion.

Mixing representative and direct democracy is messy, but I really think we'd be much better off focussing on getting the best possible deal going forward rather than challenging stuff and getting ever more divisive. As someone who has been an expat I am certain that however aggrevieved they may feel their interests count for nothing in this. It's done, or if it is revisited the level of fury may be such that the leave margin is even bigger. Not worth the aggravation.

 

[ELLERS]

All the people didn't vote - I didn't along with millions of others who were affected by it.

Tough luck, they should have voted. Don't come out bitching after. If people want change or believe in something we have a democratic system, it's called a vote. If they cannot be bothered then that is their problem and not mine. Only one-third of the young voted anyway. Let me tell you something. You can petition,march.bitch,demonstrate even sing but it won't make a difference. It's done and dusted and as soon as the new Prime minister is elected they will pull the plug.

 

[ELLERS]

That was where you were supposed to post that picture of a kid crying Ellers.

I don't for a minute think that it will happen, but it would be be perfectly democratic for parliament to decide that the referendum result was too close to be definitive and that leaving the Single Market would be economic madness.

I saw a fab one on Facebook of a spoilt child crying with some text under it but at the end of the day Stroller i won't rub people's noses into the ground because it affects all of us. It was over 1m and that's not close. Think of elections that have been closer and we accepted it.

 

[colognehornet]

Tough luck, they should have voted. Don't come out bitching after. If people want change or believe in something we have a democratic system, it's called a vote. If they cannot be bothered then that is their problem and not mine. Only one-third of the young voted anyway. Let me tell you something. You can petition,march.bitch,demonstrate even sing but it won't make a difference. It's done and dusted and as soon as the new Prime minister is elected they will pull the plug.

You misunderstood, whether deliberately or not I don't know, I didn't vote because I wasn't allowed to !

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

That was where you were supposed to post that picture of a kid crying Ellers.

I don't for a minute think that it will happen, but it would be be perfectly democratic for parliament to decide that the referendum result was too close to be definitive and that leaving the Single Market would be economic madness.

And I assume if the vote had gone the other way, you would have supported Parliament granting Leave another referendum because of the "close" vote!

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

Referenda are ridiculous ways to decide anything and I voted Leave. It's a shame that what swung an even contest towards Leave was that a lot of people (on both sides, but more for Leave IMO) made their decision on moronic grounds. The average bloke on the street isn't bright enough to deserve a say, hence voting for well educated representatives every five years.