Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Sooperhoop]

I've always viewed the people who join the Labour Party are pure Socialists, one reason I never joined them even though I was a Trade Union Officer in the past. Corbyn represents Socialism in it's purest form, also the reason he looks like he's being dragged into situations he is clearly uncomfortable with which are part and parcel of his job. It's also the reason he is so popular with the grass root Socialists who now have the unpleasant 'Momentum' mob of Commies alongside them.

They've hi-jacked the party and there really seems nothing the MPs can do to get shot of him as the membership will always have a massive majority for their idealistic leader. As Beth says, many will be joining to reinforce his position. 'Blair's New Labour' is dead and buried...

 

[TootingExcess]

If only we'd voted remain - the push to STV would have been galvanised by 4 million plus UKIP voters disenfranchised by FPTP. Instead we get the same old same old Tory government - split by left/right factions - getting voted in time and again with 35% of the vote.

 

[Stroller]

I've always viewed the people who join the Labour Party are pure Socialists, one reason I never joined them even though I was a Trade Union Officer in the past. Corbyn represents Socialism in it's purest form, also the reason he looks like he's being dragged into situations he is clearly uncomfortable with which are part and parcel of his job. It's also the reason he is so popular with the grass root Socialists who now have the unpleasant 'Momentum' mob of Commies alongside them.

They've hi-jacked the party and there really seems nothing the MPs can do to get shot of him as the membership will always have a massive majority for their idealistic leader. As Beth says, many will be joining to reinforce his position. 'Blair's New Labour' is dead and buried...

Is it not the MPs that are trying to hi-jack the party by forcing a leader elected with a massive share of the membership vote to resign? If the party members want Corbyn, he should stay. Those MPs opposing Corbyn should resign and form a new party or stand as independents.

 

[sheffordqpr]

Bozzer was out manoeuvered by Gove. I think that we need a Brexit PM as a remainer MAY not push the changes through as hard as a brexiteer. Both the Tories and Labour seem to be in meltdown at the moment with Corbyns' refusal to budge making Labours situation slightly worse.

 

[sb_73]

Join quick Stan.....I have just signed on the red dotted line.....
I am not sure you are right that all the Corbyn supporters have already signed up

I know 5 new ones that have signed on in the last 24 hrs....

Really? Balls.

You have to feel that, although the moderates are loathe to do it, the "gang of four" route may be the only option, leaving Labour to the Socialist Worker's Party, Young Communists etc

What name will they choose if they split? New Labour is probably best avoided...

Independent Labour Party has a fine pedigree from the 30's

Is it not the MPs that are trying to hi-jack the party by forcing a leader elected with a massive share of the membership vote to resign? If the party members want Corbyn, he should stay. Those MPs opposing Corbyn should resign and form a new party or stand as independents.

He stands for something very clear Strolls. If enough people share his views and think they are practical and relevant,a he'll get votes. His problem is competence and I suspect, desire to be a party manager, let alone to manage a country. It's way out of his comfort zone. The Times reckons he wants to resign but feels he can't because it would let people down.

 

[Sooperhoop]

Is it not the MPs that are trying to hi-jack the party by forcing a leader elected with a massive share of the membership vote to resign? If the party members want Corbyn, he should stay. Those MPs opposing Corbyn should resign and form a new party or stand as independents.

The biggest joke in all of this was that originally there were never enough MPs willing to back Corbyn to get him to take part in the Leadership election, until some bright spark had the idea of MPs nominating him to give members a chance to vote for all the broadest range of the party. Once the hard-left realised they had a chance the party suddenly attracted thousands of new members as well as some naughty Tories as well. It really is one from the "You couldn't make it up" category and in it's own way was as big a mistake as Cameron offering the Referendum...

 

[sheffordqpr]

On a slightly lighter note, if Gove doesn't think that Boris has the leadership qualities to run the country and lacks the ability to unite the party and the nation, surely the FA should be offering Bozzer the England managers role!! Or is he over qualified?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Independent Labour Party has a fine pedigree from the 30's

Yes, a good choice

 

[QPRCate]

You can be a bit of an old woman at times Col, but your not a racist. Just ignore morons they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Col is not an old woman he is a man who knows his own mind and stands by it! And he is certainly no racist. He is clearly well read on the EU Brexit stuff and I for one respect him for his views.

It would appear from his comments he went against his family members with his vote, that deserves admiration at least even if you do not agree with him and his vote!

 

[Supergod00]

Interesting words from the head of the eu trade commission who has said that we can not negotiate a trade deal with the eu until we have completely left and on top of that we can not negotiate deals with anyone else until we have left, both would break strict eu trade rules. Means that as soon as we leave we will be under wto rules for a long time until we can get deals in place, which will of course take a long time!

 

[sb_73]

Interesting words from the head of the eu trade commission who has said that we can not negotiate a trade deal with the eu until we have completely left and on top of that we can not negotiate deals with anyone else until we have left, both would break strict eu trade rules. Means that as soon as we leave we will be under wto rules for a long time until we can get deals in place, which will of course take a long time!

Before Goldie says it, the EU hasn't been through this process before, and various officials really shouldn't be thinking it through in public. If they can find a way that minimises disruption, they'll take it.

Some of them seem to be in the anger stage of the five stages of grieving (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance). I think most of the UK, including huge numbers of Leave voters are still in denial, they don't actually believe it's happened. A brief burst of anger with the plan lite Brexit leaders, a frenzy of pointless bargaining until we realise that we don't make the rules followed by a couple of years of rather dull depression to come. Bring it on!

 

[kiwiqpr]

If you want me to I am willing to try and start free trade talks with new Zealand now
We have lots of spare sheep/wine and milk powder to send you
We also have experienced bar staff ready to go

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Before Goldie says it, the EU hasn't been through this process before, and various officials really shouldn't be thinking it through in public. If they can find a way that minimises disruption, they'll take it.

Some of them seem to be in the anger stage of the five stages of grieving (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance). I think most of the UK, including huge numbers of Leave voters are still in denial, they don't actually believe it's happened. A brief burst of anger with the plan lite Brexit leaders, a frenzy of pointless bargaining until we realise that we don't make the rules followed by a couple of years of rather dull depression to come. Bring it on!

I don't think that a period of uncertainty and economic unrest is necessarily a solid reason for voting Remain. I am, however, appalled at the lack of leadership now that Brexit has won the referendum. Unfortunately, whilst Brexit could've heralded the end of the two main political parties in this country and kicked off the process of replacing them with something(s) more aligned with the British people, as it's clear that neither the parliamentary Conservatives nor the parliamentary Labour are in step with the ordinary man, instead the news is now seemingly dominated by the Tory leadership contest and Labour's leadership challenge, as though sorting these out will give us the political changes that we need.

I don't think it's that hard to sketch out a rough outline of the kind of relationship that the UK would ideally want with the EU. If I had the time now I'd have a go.

 

[TheBigDipper]

The Labour Party:

The PLP (the MPs) didn't want Corbyn as leader. The most frequently expressed reason being he can't lead them to an election victory and they don't see him as PM material. The grassroots party members (new and old) voted him in and are giving him massive support. A group of people with Labour party cards calling themselves 'Momentum' are particularly vociferous and active.

The party membership say their MPs are being undemocratic by not supporting Corbyn. There's lots of talk about "toe the line or get deselected". that might not happen until 2020.

The MPs say they'd love to, but he can't lead and won't win. They might also say they were elected by the electorate, not just the party membership and have a duty to represent all the voters in their constituency and pursue the Ed Milliband manifesto - because that's why they got those votes in 2015.

What a mess!

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Before Goldie says it, the EU hasn't been through this process before, and various officials really shouldn't be thinking it through in public. If they can find a way that minimises disruption, they'll take it.

Some of them seem to be in the anger stage of the five stages of grieving (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance). I think most of the UK, including huge numbers of Leave voters are still in denial, they don't actually believe it's happened. A brief burst of anger with the plan lite Brexit leaders, a frenzy of pointless bargaining until we realise that we don't make the rules followed by a couple of years of rather dull depression to come. Bring it on!

You're right about the emotion flowing over at the moment, Stan, mostly from Europe, which is understandable. Of the five stages you mention, I suspect bargaining will come after acceptance. Hard nosed negotiators on both sides will sit down in metaphorical smoked filled rooms to bash out a compromise acceptable to all. It'll happen, EU member countries cannot hold their anger against UK voters for long. There's a growing trend to look to the Commission, and why it didn't give Cameron more concessions which might have swung the result around to Remain

 

[sb_73]

I don't think that a period of uncertainty and economic unrest is necessarily a solid reason for voting Remain. I am, however, appalled at the lack of leadership now that Brexit has won the referendum. Unfortunately, whilst Brexit could've heralded the end of the two main political parties in this country and kicked off the process of replacing them with something(s) more aligned with the British people, as it's clear that neither the parliamentary Conservatives nor the parliamentary Labour are in step with the ordinary man, instead the news is now seemingly dominated by the Tory leadership contest and Labour's leadership challenge, as though sorting these out will give us the political changes that we need.

I don't think it's that hard to sketch out a rough outline of the kind of relationship that the UK would ideally want with the EU. If I had the time now I'd have a go.

I'd like to see your outline Ubes.

In my experience, there are 3 types of negotiation: very easy ones, where the interests of negotiating parties are very clear and very aligned; very one sided ones, where one negotiating party has little to lose if it fails but the other side is hugely dependent on it; and near impossible ones where one or other of the parties has a bottom line unacceptable to the other. In this case it is in nobody's interest to muck trade about. The EU will miss the UKs financial contribution, but can live with that (poor old Germany). The sticking point has to be freedom of movement, which if the UK government sticks to the spirit of the referendum has to be non negotiable from our side, and the opposite would seem true as well. Net result, Canada type deal taking many years to negotiate (we are at a disadvantage because we don't have many experienced negotiators) with many exclusions, including financial services. But we will have got 'independence' (whatever that means) and control of our borders (let's hope we can implement it). I think, on paper, most Leave voters would take that.

The unknown is the length and impact of the economic uncertainty, and whether we will end up at a permanently/very long term lower economic level than had we remained. Some of that we won't notice as it will involve investments that will never be made, what you've never had you don't miss. But if inflation and unemployment start to move in the wrong direction, I.e. Ordinary voters feel the impact, the willingness to say 'it was worth the pain', will, in my view, be severely dented especially if our 'independence' is managed by politicians behaving in the pathetic and peurile way that have been for the last few months.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I don't think that a period of uncertainty and economic unrest is necessarily a solid reason for voting Remain. I am, however, appalled at the lack of leadership now that Brexit has won the referendum. Unfortunately, whilst Brexit could've heralded the end of the two main political parties in this country and kicked off the process of replacing them with something(s) more aligned with the British people, as it's clear that neither the parliamentary Conservatives nor the parliamentary Labour are in step with the ordinary man, instead the news is now seemingly dominated by the Tory leadership contest and Labour's leadership challenge, as though sorting these out will give us the political changes that we need.

I don't think it's that hard to sketch out a rough outline of the kind of relationship that the UK would ideally want with the EU. If I had the time now I'd have a go.

It'll shake down, Uber, and financial markets are pretty stable at present, which is encouraging all things considered. I'd like Michael Gove to win the Tory leadership and I can understand why supporters lost faith in the clever but blundering and unreliable Johnson. My main criticism is that these supporters should have seen this earlier - that they did not looks like it will damage Gove's prospects now that he is seen as a turn-coat.

I could live with Theresa May as PM, so long as a Brexiteer, preferably Gove, heads the Brexit-negotiation unit.

As to an effective opposition party, we could be without one for some time. Labour need to get their act together quickly if they aren't to haemorrhage support. The present debacle is not good for national interests.

 

[sb_73]

You're right about the emotion flowing over at the moment, Stan, mostly from Europe, which is understandable. Of the five stages you mention, I suspect bargaining will come after acceptance. Hard nosed negotiators on both sides will sit down in metaphorical smoked filled rooms to bash out a compromise acceptable to all. It'll happen, EU member countries cannot hold their anger against UK voters for long. There's a growing trend to look to the Commission, and why it didn't give Cameron more concessions which might have swung the result around to Remain

There will come a time Goldie, quite soon, where you can't blame the EU for everything. Apparently we hold our own 'destiny' in our hands now. The fact that no one in authority in the UK, or even those who want to be in authority, seems able or willing to describe what it looks like is not the EUs fault. We don't have any experienced hard nosed negotiators, the British ones all work for the EU.

Surely our most sensible option at this stage from the UK perspective is to plan on the assumption that we will be fully out of the EU in 2.5 years, stop trying to second guess what the EU will or won't do, and if we end up with anything more than nothing it's a bonus.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

There will come a time Goldie, quite soon, where you can't blame the EU for everything. Apparently we hold our own 'destiny' in our hands now. The fact that no one in authority in the UK, or even those who want to be in authority, seems able or willing to describe what it looks like is not the EUs fault. We don't have any experienced hard nosed negotiators, the British ones all work for the EU.

Surely our most sensible option at this stage from the UK perspective is to plan on the assumption that we will be fully out of the EU in 2.5 years, stop trying to second guess what the EU will or won't do, and if we end up with anything more than nothing it's a bonus.

If the EU was that wonderful, Stan, there would not be a groundswell of opinion in certain Continental European countries, for their own referendum. I don't think Juncker will be able to keep the lid on this, but we'll see.

We're in completely new territory, and I'm not blaming anyone, UK or EU, for the fact that no one quite knows where we will end up in our relationship with the EU. But I do have faith that pragmatism will win the day, and I don't share your lack of confidence in British negotiators that aren't on the Brussels gravy train. We have brilliant lawyers and determined Brexit ministers. Even May, though a Remainian, would be a tough prospect across the table.

I agree we have to plan for the worst. Melanie Phillips called it right on QT last night. It's a classic game of poker. The EU want to bring us to heel by remaining entrenched on freedom of movement, but behind the scenes, Germany and France in particular, are increasingly concerned to keep a huge buyer of their goods and services sweet, and trade tariff free

 

[ELLERS]

The more i read about the EU the more i see how undemocratic and flawed it is. I seem to agree with what someone said yesterday, Don't blame the UK voters blame the EU bosses because we went there with concerns and they wouldn't listen. Juncker is another 'dead man walking'. Maybe if they had someone like comrade Corbyn running it we might see some change. Saying that if he was in charge we would all be living in grey blocks of flats calling each other comrade.