Off Topic The Politics Thread

[ELLERS]

I have had a look at many of the debates across the various boards and, to be honest, this is one of the best. However, one point has stuck with me, because it is repeated over and over again - and that is, do the remainers have sour grapes ? and Why can't they just accept defeat and move on ? Well, I can remember Farage saying in May (when he thought he would lose) that a result of 52-48% for remain would be an inconclusive result and that he could imagine there being a second referendum under those circumstances - and I do not think that other Brexiters would have clapped their hands, said 'well played sir' and moved on. Why should it be different the other way round ? Also, many people are saying 'we are out'. We are most definitely not out - Article 50 may or may not be invoked in a few months time (it may be even longer - Gove has suggested it could be as late as 2018), it's clear that nobody other than Farage really wants to do it. Once invoked we are still subject to EU. law for a minimum of 2 years - and the decision for Brexit can be reversed at any time during that period. Those aged 16 now could be 19 by the time Brexit actually happens and some of the oldies will have popped off by then. Can anyone say that Brexit would happen then,possibly against the will of the electorate, against the will of parliament, against the will of the most of British industry, against the will of all the World's leaders apart from Putin, simply because of one referendum taken 2-3 years earlier ? Parliament would be perfectly entitled to ignore the result as only 'advisory', or call a second referendum - though I actually think that the safer course is to wait. Because over the course of those 2 years every single act of European law would have to be voted on by the British parliament (which has 450 remainers to 150 Brexiters) and they could just as easily block it act by act.

Some good points. When this referendum was voted in the house i believe it was 6 to 1 in favor of offering the British public a referendum so politicians shouldn't be moaning now. I also believe that the Leave lot were as shocked as i was when they won. However it was a fair democratic process and we must do what the public say. otherwise it was as waste of my Thursday night. I also don't believe in another referendum because a result is a result.

Farage has just said on Skynews that Australia and New Zealand are fighting to secure new bigger and better trade deals with Britain. If this is correct, this would be a massive plus for Britain.

 

[colognehornet]

Of course your grapes are not sour!

I'm hoping that my grapes will be very sweet this year - last year they were ruined by wasps.

 

[Stroller]

if the government try or do a u-turn on the referendum there would be a civil war and it would lead to mass hate crimes and endless trouble/riots.
We had a vote and we all need to respect the result. I was on the border of remain/leave and would have respected the result whatever. it's called a democracy and we need to stick by it or we might as well be North Korea.
Now quite a few TV reporters are saying that all the stalling is a plan to stay. interesting times a head.

As has already been pointed out, the people have voted to leave the EU, but there is no clear instruction as to what the terms should be. We could leave the EU but stay in the single market, thereby continuing to accept EU regulations relating to trade, including free movement. Those that voted Leave because they don't like immigrants wouldn't be happy, but there was nowhere on the ballot paper to state that. Those that voted on the principle of sovereignty would presumably be happy though.

 

[durbar2003]

I'm hoping that my grapes will be very sweet this year - last year they were ruined by wasps.

You must have been a sour kraut last year!

 

[rangercol]

We will now start to learn what not having a written constitution means. For all those revelling in us having 'taken back control', control sits with the Queen, Sovereign in Parliament. In a representative Parliament the members are meant to act in the citizens' best interests, and by extension the best interests of the country as a whole. This is not the same as doing what the majority of the citizens say they want, without exercising judgement. That would be a direct democracy, not what we have and highly undesirable in my view. And it always gets messy when you mix the two versions of democracy up.

So members of Parliament would be well within their constitutional and sovereign rights to decide that leaving the EU is not in the country's best interests, despite what the referendum said. Indeed, it would be a clear demonstration of the sovereignty of parliament, exactly what some leave voters said they were voting for. It would also be an honourable, honest and courageous act on behalf of the individual MPs. There would probably have to be a General Election as a result of such a decision, but as we are going to have one anyway, so what? Either way, the constitutional process means Parliament has to repeal the European Communities Act 1972 as the starting gun in the withdrawal from the EU marathon hurdles. We can't start Article 50 until Parliament has spoken. So Jacob Rees Mogg can stuff that in his crack pipe and smoke it.

I'd like this to happen, as then the Tories and Labour would both have to split into Remain and Leave factions in the general election. You would know exactly what the person you were voting for stood for, regarding the EU at least. And of course it would be a shining example of British independence, sovereignty and 'control' at work. I know it doesn't sound democratic, but it's the version of democracy we have. The people en masse are not to be trusted with decision making, they can elect the people who make the decisions. If you want that to change we need a revolution.

So much blah blah mate.

How many ways can remainers think up to try to reverse the result of the referendum?

If parliament doesn't abide by the result of this vote politicians in this country will be finished.

 

[ELLERS]

So much blah blah mate.

How many ways can remainers think up to try to reverse the result of the referendum?

If parliament doesn't abide by the result of this vote politicians in this country will be finished.

Totally agree Col and it seems that Cameron and co are slowing things down. Now that twunt Jeremy *unt is saying if he is elected he will ask for another referendum. Now the EU members are saying to us to take our time hoping things will change and we will go back to them.
If this is the case democracy in Britain will be over.

 

[rangercol]

As has already been pointed out, the people have voted to leave the EU, but there is no clear instruction as to what the terms should be. We could leave the EU but stay in the single market, thereby continuing to accept EU regulations relating to trade, including free movement. Those that voted Leave because they don't like immigrants wouldn't be happy, but there was nowhere on the ballot paper to state that. Those that voted on the principle of sovereignty would presumably be happy though.

I could possibly live with that, although I do feel that immigration is a problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[colognehornet]

Totally agree Col and it seems that Cameron and co are slowing things down. Now that twunt Jeremy *unt is saying if he is elected he will ask for another referendum. Now the EU members are saying to us to take our time hoping things will change and we will go back to them.
If this is the case democracy in Britain will be over.

If there were any real democracy in Britain newspapers would not be telling their readers which way to vote and debates of this kind would be conducted using real information - there has been no debate. Also, in a real democracy we would not have had a Tory majority in the first place. There has to be a second referendum on this - we do not pay our politicians to collectively choose a course which they know will damage the economy for years to come, will damage Britain's standing in the World, and will plunge us into constitutional crisis. How Cameron could have been such an arrogant moron as to trust a simple first past the post referendum in a country where the Sun and the Mail are the 2 mostly widely read newspapers is beyond me.

 

[durbar2003]

If there were any real democracy in Britain newspapers would not be telling their readers which way to vote and debates of this kind would be conducted using real information - there has been no debate. Also, in a real democracy we would not have had a Tory majority in the first place. There has to be a second referendum on this - we do not pay our politicians to collectively choose a course which they know will damage the economy for years to come, will damage Britain's standing in the World, and will plunge us into constitutional crisis. How Cameron could have been such an arrogant moron as to trust a simple first past the post referendum in a country where the Sun and the Mail are the 2 mostly widely read newspapers is beyond me.

You have to wake up, all newspapers lean one way or another, whether here, UK or Germany or wherever. Its true now and has always been true.

 

[rangercol]

If there were any real democracy in Britain newspapers would not be telling their readers which way to vote and debates of this kind would be conducted using real information - there has been no debate. Also, in a real democracy we would not have had a Tory majority in the first place. There has to be a second referendum on this - we do not pay our politicians to collectively choose a course which they know will damage the economy for years to come, will damage Britain's standing in the World, and will plunge us into constitutional crisis. How Cameron could have been such an arrogant moron as to trust a simple first past the post referendum in a country where the Sun and the Mail are the 2 mostly widely read newspapers is beyond me.

Yeah..................do it the EU way eh?
Keep making us vote till the desired result is reached.

Never trust the people, just dictate to them eh?

 

[Sooperhoop]

We will now start to learn what not having a written constitution means. For all those revelling in us having 'taken back control', control sits with the Queen, Sovereign in Parliament. In a representative Parliament the members are meant to act in the citizens' best interests, and by extension the best interests of the country as a whole. This is not the same as doing what the majority of the citizens say they want, without exercising judgement. That would be a direct democracy, not what we have and highly undesirable in my view. And it always gets messy when you mix the two versions of democracy up.

So members of Parliament would be well within their constitutional and sovereign rights to decide that leaving the EU is not in the country's best interests, despite what the referendum said. Indeed, it would be a clear demonstration of the sovereignty of parliament, exactly what some leave voters said they were voting for. It would also be an honourable, honest and courageous act on behalf of the individual MPs. There would probably have to be a General Election as a result of such a decision, but as we are going to have one anyway, so what? Either way, the constitutional process means Parliament has to repeal the European Communities Act 1972 as the starting gun in the withdrawal from the EU marathon hurdles. We can't start Article 50 until Parliament has spoken. So Jacob Rees Mogg can stuff that in his crack pipe and smoke it.

I'd like this to happen, as then the Tories and Labour would both have to split into Remain and Leave factions in the general election. You would know exactly what the person you were voting for stood for, regarding the EU at least. And of course it would be a shining example of British independence, sovereignty and 'control' at work. I know it doesn't sound democratic, but it's the version of democracy we have. The people en masse are not to be trusted with decision making, they can elect the people who make the decisions. If you want that to change we need a revolution.

I think it's fair to say if that scenario is played out to a General Election UKIP would gain massively as they would be the only party who could enact the referendum result through Parliament, even people who voted 'Remain' may feel that the will of the people has been ignored. It really is the thin end of the wedge when democracy plays second fiddle to arrogance...

 

[ELLERS]

You have to wake up, all newspapers lean one way or another, whether here, UK or Germany or wherever. Its true now and has always been true.

Yeah as if we can't make up our own mind and vote how we feel? And more project fear about our country because the other team won the majority. This is really turning into sour grapes

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

The political classes on all sides, plus the liberal elite have ignored people's fears about immigration for yearsand hhave turned off the debate whenever it was raised by screaming "racism". They are completely to blame for where we find ourselves today.
The mass immigration, multicultural experiment has left this country divided and in disarray.

Also, all these youngsters blaming the older generation for the leave result need look no further than themselves.
Apparently under 40% of 18-24 year olds who could vote actually did.
80% of older people voted.
The young only have themselves to blame.

That is a very neat way of avoiding answering my point. Deflection by raising a number of other groups to blame for acts of blatant race hatred. You sound like the sort of person who would readily attack any defence based on psychological causes for acts which most of us recognise to be pure evil. So tell us please. What have the Poles done to deserve to be attacked in this way? I'll give you a clue. It has nothing to do with youngsters not voting or the older generation making what you believe to be mistakes in pursuing multiculturalism and tolerance of others who don't share your background. Try again. A simple acknowledgment that it was inexcusable and that the perpetrators should be dealt with severely would be nice. Unless of course you think it was acceptable. I'm sure we'd all like to know if that is the case.

 

[durbar2003]

Yeah as if we can't make up our own mind and vote how we feel? And more project fear about our country because the other team won the majority. This is really turning into sour grapes

I have no sour grapes, I haven't lived in the UK for 35 years and in fact it has help me a lot.

 

[rangercol]

That is a very neat way of avoiding answering my point. Deflection by raising a number of other groups to blame for acts of blatant race hatred. You sound like the sort of person who would readily attack any defence based on psychological causes for acts which most of us recognise to be pure evil. So tell us please. What have the Poles done to deserve to be attacked in this way? I'll give you a clue. It has nothing to do with youngsters not voting or the older generation making what you believe to be mistakes in pursuing multiculturalism and tolerance of others who don't share your background. Try again. A simple acknowledgment that it was inexcusable and that the perpetrators should be dealt with severely would be nice. Unless of course you think it was acceptable. I'm sure we'd all like to know if that is the case.

Are you suggesting that I am a racist?
Please clarify.

I have answered your question.
You are reacting hysterically to these attacks.
The BBC revealed today that there have been 85 such attacks reported. That is an increase of around 30.
So a spike, but incredibly rare.
As is always the case in periods of uncertainty, extremists try to take advantage. This is the usual nut job racists doing just that.

Again, please clarify as to whether you are accusing me of being a racist.

 

[durbar2003]

I'm a racist, I like Motor Races, Horse Races in fact a lot of races.

 

[ELLERS]

I have no sour grapes, I haven't lived in the UK for 35 years and in fact it has help me a lot.

oops sorry Durbar i replied to the wrong post.

 

[sb_73]

So much blah blah mate.

How many ways can remainers think up to try to reverse the result of the referendum?

If parliament doesn't abide by the result of this vote politicians in this country will be finished.

As I said later in the thread Col, I don't think they will have the balls to do it. It wouldn't reverse the result of the referendum, which as Strolls said means different things to different people who voted leave, it would just start the process of getting a Parliament and Government which actually supports the policy. It's what I meant earlier in the thread that Cameron ****ed up by not making the referendum explicitly mandatory. Then there would have been none of these possibilities, they would have to accept and act on the leave vote. It's got nothing to do with me being a remainer, just having a bit of fun, speculating. If it actually happens the consequences could be much worse than leaving the EU, as Sooper noted. I hadn't thought that bit through when I posted. Having Farage with any more influence may even get an old, lazy, self regarding git like me out on the streets.

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

Are you suggesting that I am a racist?
Please clarify.

I have answered your question.
You are reacting hysterically to these attacks.
The BBC revealed today that there have been 85 such attacks reported. That is an increase of around 30.
So a spike, but incredibly rare.
As is always the case in periods of uncertainty, extremists try to take advantage. This is the usual nut job racists doing just that.

Again, please clarify as to whether you are accusing me of being a racist.

No. I have no idea whether you are a racist or not and made no such accusation. I was very clear in my question. If you are a racist just say so. This is a forum after all. It is simply disappointing that you chose to be evasive in seeing those acts for what they were. 85 acts of nutjob racism. You may see this as a minor spike and any condemnation of it as hysterical. Frankly I find your unwillingness to condemn it as disturbing. Even now, there seems to be no sense of outrage at the behaviour of some of your compatriots. Surely you don't subscribe to the "boys will be boys " and "it's laddish behaviour, that's all" school of thought.

 

[rangercol]

No. I have no idea whether you are a racist or not and made no such accusation. I was very clear in my question. If you are a racist just say so. This is a forum after all. It is simply disappointing that you chose to be evasive in seeing those acts for what they were. 85 acts of nutjob racism. You may see this as a minor spike and any condemnation of it as hysterical. Frankly I find your unwillingness to condemn it as disturbing. Even now, there seems to be no sense of outrage at the behaviour of some of your compatriots. Surely you don't subscribe to the "boys will be boys " and "it's laddish behaviour, that's all" school of thought.

You are continuing to suggest, all be it in a veiled manner that I am a racist.

Please apologise for suggesting such a disgraceful slur on my character.
I have never condoned any acts of racism.
I haven't been evasive in any way. In fact it's you who are being evasive by not acknowledging that immigration can be a genuine concern for people.