Off Topic Impact of Brexit on Football

I'll tell you what happened, the Labour party for years has been losing touch with it's traditional core vote. They have failed to listen to the poorer hard working classes with their concerns on immigration and lack of access to basic services. Ergo, Ukip mopped up their votes because they were saying all the things the people wanted to hear. The Labour party is not the party of yesteryear, it continues to pander to the middle classes and luvvie champagne socialists and unless it re-invents itself will become totally unelectable. I know what I'm talking about because I witness it first hand when we visit reletives in Bradford, one of the worst affected communities. I would suggest that most of those who can't believe the outcome of this referendum live in leafy suburbs or rural areas which seem a million miles from the most affected places.
We now have Turdgeon in Scotland refusing to accept the result because one million (yes that's right JUST ONE million Scots), voted to remain. Well quite frankly I think Scotland divorcing itself from the UK would also benefit England, Wales and Northern Ireland as it will be another leech off our backs.

Believe in your country, short term pain possibly for long term gain, we WILL thrive outside of the EU

 

Good reply KIO and yes I don't see how things are in Bradford and such like and I guess it is of how bad things are in such places that the Leave campaign has succeeded.
Will we bounce back - I feel we probably will, but there's going to be quite a period of uncertainty to be negotiated in the next few months and years.
I'm in complete agreement re the 'wicked witch of the north '

 

KIO, I really do like a lot of your stuff and think that many of your posts over the last year or two have been great.
On this issue I think you are way off. I agree about the Labour party losing touch and think that in many ways the Tories have too, let's face it, this referendum was only called as a sop by Cameron to deflect the UKIP surge around the pre-election period. he thought that the electorate would buy into his leadership and the issue would go away. I get that and am not arguing the point. But fundamentally the UKIP position is based on whipping up nationalism against immigrants and many people vote for them who never encounter immigrants on a daily basis. My Mother for example, is very unwell and without help from immigrants would leave me in a very desperate position, it is not just a case of a one horse pony debate. To cap it all, Grayling has said again today that they cannot guarantee that immigration will come down having left the EU. So we get most of the negatives by leaving and lose all of the positives. Scotland goes, possibly Northern Ireland - unless you live in an ivory tower, obviously not a leafy suburb, this is going to affect you as well. Maybe not tangibly today but see how you feel in 6 - 9 months. The pound will be weaker which means imports (the goods in the shops) will be dearer, you will blame the supermakets but ignore your role in this sorry affair. Boris won't care, he will have got what he wanted in the most cynical way and you will never have voted for him.
Yep, this is the future, welcome to it, be a man and come back on here in a year and tell us all how great England is and your part in making it all happen!!

 

Excellent post Thurnby!!

 

The battle bus - It does not say that by leaving the EU we will save £350 million and spend it on the NHS nor did Farage ever say this. People may have interrupted it as meaning what the remain side said it meant, but that isn't what it says

Both campaigns were dominated by too many soundbites & rhetoric and the press in general and the BBC in particular let them get away with it.

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I think this kind of sums up the problem all the other parties are having with UKIP, in that they actually believe this. As long as other parties continue to believe UKIP's appeal is predominately down to there perceived anti immigrant stance, UKIP will continue to cause the political establishment problems. Hopefully the political elite have had a big enough shock from the vote to have a good look at themselves and change. Things like dismissing people who don't agree with you as racist, believing that the only way of measuring peoples well being is in monetary terms and doing nothing to address the ever increasing gap between the wealthiest in society & the poorest (I could go on) is only going to continue to reduce the the engagement of people with the establish political parties. Trouble is after each shock the political establishment say things like we must listen to our supporters / peoples concerns immediately followed by continuing to spout the very things that caused the shock in the first place. Like most people politicians have 2 ears and 1 mouth and should try listening twice as much as they talk.

 

What the first 'official' Leave leaflet actually says is this (in true ColuMike style):

"FACT: Britain's official bill for EU membership is £19 billion per year or £350 million every week - the cost of a new hospital. You have to decide whether what we get back from the EU is worth this."

There is no mention of the rebate of £181m per week, or the £4.5 billion in farm subsidies the EU provides to British farmers or any of the other inward payments. It is not a FACT that we pay £350 million every week - the cost of a new hospital. That is a quite deliberate lie.

What the second official leaflet says on the cover is: "The EU costs us £350 million per week - we could spend that on the NHS instead." Again there is no mention of the rebate or other inward payments. That is the lie stated in the very words you say they never used, Canario.

 

And the different interpretations of the message were more than sufficiently discuss in the media to allow anyone with a modicum of interest in current affairs, let alone in the EU referendum to make up their own mind. There were plenty of misleading statements and down right lies on both sides of the argument not least our so called PM saying that he would stay on whatever the result. I think the initial point was that Farage was back tracking and was changing his tune on the £350m claim and that he was somewhat less than human because he had made the claim and then said he thought the claim was a mistake, which again is another lie that our publicly fund broadcaster is peddling. The claim was made by the official leave campaign and on their bus, something Farage had no control over because he wasn't part of the official leave campaign, despite his party being a catalyst for the referendum. Truth is the conservatives hedge their bets by ensuring both the official leave & official remain campaign were led by a Tory so whatever happened they were on the winning side and could blame Corbyn or Farage depending on the result.

Whether we actually send the 350m a week or not is just a matter of semantic's.

So lets work on your facts

EU membership is £19 billion. This represents what the EU thinks we should pay

We get a rebate (lets call it cashback) which is 181m a week or 9.4 billion a year. The rebate is not guaranteed forever and is the price the EU were willing to pay to try and keep the majority of the UK public on side.

We get 4.5 billion in farm subsidies and other inward payments.

So our net contribution is 5.1 billion which I guess we could put into the NHS or anything else.

I don't know how much a new hospital costs, but I don't remember anyone disputing the £350m figure

Do we actually send 350m everyweek to the EU and get 181m back at some later point or do we just do the sums and send the net amount I don't really know.

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

 

RER - I seem to remember that our nett contribution was around £170M a week, so your figures are fairly accurate. I'm assuming it won't be until we actually leave that we'll stop making payments/receiving subsidies and my concern is how much of what we save will actually end up in the NHS/Education budgets!!!

 

To Carrowcannario - what does your comment mean? I think this kind of sums up the problem all the other parties are having with UKIP, in that they actually believe this. As long as other parties continue to believe UKIP's appeal is predominately down to there perceived anti immigrant stance, UKIP will continue to cause the political establishment problems. Hopefully the political elite have had a big enough shock from the vote to have a good look at themselves and change. Things like dismissing people who don't agree with you as racist,

 

What are you saying here?
Obviously immigration is the focal point - what else really are they saying? They go to the deprived areas of the UK and what are they are talking about - it isn't the value of the pound or who will be a contender for the Nobel prizes is it? It has been a cynical one dimensional campaign to get this result and one has to question the ultimate objective.
Look, let's be serious here - the EU is not perfect, far from it. But by being part of the 'project' we became the 5th wealthiest nation in the World. Now from that standpoint, you might argue or debate certain facts or points but you have to be totally single minded / whacky to actually go for the eject button on that basis!
So don't tell me that racism which is a very immotive topic was not central to that attack, And now , the decent silent majoity have paid a price which is incalculable in terms of well being, cash, prospects and genuine hopes for ordinary people, people like me, nothing great, nothing weathy or pretentious, just normal doing our small part in the World.
Thanks Farage, thanks Boris and your Etonian chums who don't care, have got no idea at all about us, you will move upwards and tread over us to the top - it leaves guys like me and Carrowcanario in the basement talking tosh on forums like this, you must be laughing your b*llocks off!

 

As an outsider, although not entirely disinterested party, looking in, I was surprised at the result, and am not entirely sure that it will be to the long term benefit of the country. I ´d have said that Britain needs the EU as much, if not more, than the EU needs Britain. It seems rather short-sighted and narrow-minded, if the overwhelming theme of the OUT-ers was the ´anti-immigrant campaign´, and it also strikes an unfortunate note, that apparently the majority of those who were for staying in, were the young people of today, and the future of Britain in years to come. The fact that they were outvoted generally by older people, whose contribution to the country is ending or over, does not seem to me, a good sign for the years to come.

Hope the current uncertain situation does resolve itself to everyone´s satisfaction, but I´ll be interested to see just how things are tackled. Speaking as a British national, I certainly know which country I´ve been better off living in, for the past many years, and this vote has done nothing to change my mind.

 

The negotiations are certainly going to be interesting. I think something like 75% of MPs are pro-EU, so presumably will see maintaining as much of our current relationship with the EU as possible as desirable. How well that matches up with the views of the public remains to be seen. UKIP have gone from a major player in Brexit to almost an irrelevance, they have little political influence in parliament.

Political crystal ball time, I think UKIP now have to somewhat rebrand and gain influence in order to survive, seeing as negotiations with Europe could be concluded on issues important to them before a general election. I also don't think the Tories will choose Boris to lead, seeing as he doesn't help them reconnect with working class voters. Boris then defects to UKIP, along with maybe a half dozen Tory MPs, giving Boris and UKIP far more of a say in Europe negotiations.

I also wonder if when the SNP get slapped down over another independence referendum, they decide the only way to get it is through control of Westminster, and rebrand as a UK-wide party promising significant devolution. I think they'd find significant support in England from those disillusioned with Westminster and the ineffectiveness of Labour.

 

I think we would need to use some of the money to continue to subsides our farmers and I mean farmers not land owners. I sure others would like to use the money for all sorts of other things, many of which I would strongly disagree with, but the overarching point remains it will be for elected British politicians to decide how the money is spent not unelected EC bureaucrats.

 

The point about unelected bureaucrats is the strongest argument against the EU and on that point I totally agree. However, is it really worth blowing the whole economy over? er no!

 

THURNBY YELLOW I think the comments I made in context of your post are clear, but I'll try to clarify for you.

You said

I said

So you seem to be under the impression that UKIP appeal is fundamentally racist, you haven't directly said this, but that is the implication and you have also implied this in other posts.

I'm of the view that whilst undoubtedly some UKIP supporters are racist, as are supporters of other parties and I accept UKIP may have more racists supporters than other main stream parties. I think it is a mistake to suggest that the party and it's supporters are dominated by racists or that this is their only or even main appeal. Cameron made the mistake of calling them all fruit cakes and racists when the truth was that at the time they were mainly disaffected conservative supporters and as a result either undeliberately or through intention alienated them. Both the main parties like to give other parties unpleasant labels so they can then dismiss any valid views they may have, it's about owning your opponents agenda. So in the case of UKIP you may want to continually label them as fruit cakes, racist, loonies, anti-immigrant etc in the hope that if you do it enough people will not want to support them as they don't see themselves as having the labels you have given them and therefore not listen to what they actually believe. The problem as I see it is they actually have a much wider appeal and that they are fundamently not an anti immigration party and people that vote for them do so for a whole host or reasons not just because they want controlled immigration. In short the distrust the public current have of the political establishment is overriding peoples general tendency to think the worst of people. I think to continue with a labeling strategy that is not working is only going to make matters worse and may have the opposite effect to what they intend. Some main stream politicians are starting to say we need to listen to peoples concerns, particularly those that are currently supporting UKIP who have supported us in the past, but at the moment they are only playing lip service to this. The trouble is politicians are not very good at listening (just look at Pm's question time) If either the conservatives or labour could gain the support of people that support UKIP and have previously supported them then they would stand a good chance of winning the next election. I suspect if they don't change their strategy for dealing with UKIP then UKIP will continue to grow in terms of people that support them as opposed to number of MPs they have already overtaken the liberals as the third party.

You're be please to know that I won't be posting further on this matter.

 

Speaking of the Lib Dems, I see they've pledged to ignore the referendum result and keep/return Britain to the EU after the next general election.

It's a bold strategy, and you'd think would help them win back the younger voters who voted strongly to remain. Suspect it'll help them grow a little but not enough to be a genuine third party again.

 

Hi bors, it has always been in our country first past the post is the winner. In a General Election if the result is close a recount can be called to ascertain that the result is correct. A petition has been launched for a re-referendum but on what grounds. Is there anyone in this country prepared to state the person for announcing the referendum got the result wrong.

Politicians on both sides are guilty of gilding the lily, that is what politicians always do. If you believe what politicians spout then you are very naïve.

As a Leave voter I was and still am prepared to accept the decision of the electorate whatever the result, in or out because the alternative to not accepting the wishes of the electorate leads to only one way . . . . anarchy. It has never been losing an election is grounds for a re-election; that is not a democratic solution.

We are now faced with a similar situation as in 1939. The Prime Minister resigned and we needed a strong leader and all parties got together and formed a National government and chose Sir Winston Churchill to become PM. Political opponents put aside their differences for the common good and that precisely is what our country should be doing now, seeking a PM with the consent of all parties to open negotiations with the EU on behalf of the country and not for personal or party gain.

We need to put the United back in United Kingdom. too much effort is being spent accusing politicians of misleading the public or quoting how much we contribute to the EU and get back. We need to look forward and get the best terms for the future prosperity of the country and not keep bickering about what our politicians have said in this referendum.