Off Topic EU deabte. Which way are you voting ?

That's low mo fo ... I am still traumatised by piss sock day

 

You say that a lot don't you Dessie.

 

That's not what I said though was it

 

What about immigration? I am very sympathetic to those that are trying to better themselves in another country, however they are being used as political footballs by both sides. Time for my shot. I believe that immigration is being used as a political and economic instrument to keep wages low, basically by keeping the supply of lower paid workers high. This has consequent effects on a more amenable workforce. Secondary effects are to place a great strain (and potentially break) social infrastructure and the NHS in order that they can be "saved" by a privatised model. Is it any wonder that while we are constantly told how well the economy has recovered from recession, wages have not increased at the same rate (if at all). So what's good for big business isn't so good for the rest of us. All they can do is keep their margins high by minimising their workforce and paying them as little as possible - understandable, its basic economics. And its also basic economics that if there are fewer workers then higher wages will have to be paid to attract them. And what's wrong with that? There is however a hell of a lot wrong with neoliberal economics which has taken over capitalism, and those economics are inbuilt into the EU and will remain so regardless of who you elect as your MEP. True they are also in charge in the UK at the moment, but there's far more chance of changing things in one country than the globulous mess that the EU has become.

 

While I can understand what you're saying and the points you are making, I'd disagree in so much as it is the chronic underfunding and the privatisation of lots of the NHS that is breaking it. Mental Health care alone has been crippled by cuts, leading to more people needing long and short term stays in hospitals, putting an additional strain on an NHS which has been cut to breaking point already, and is further affected by companies like G4S taking on contracts (like 999 services) and running them at increased costs for worse performance. It is the same with affordable/social housing, there's been a huge cut in the amount of affordable housing built while a huge number of social/council houses have been sold off, many to private landlords, driving up rent and damaging the chances of young people to get on the property ladder.

The EU guarantee's a minimum wage, although the Tory government are even in breach of that, as through creative accounting they aren't offering anywhere near a minimum wage that matches the increases in cost of living and inflation. I'd be very wary of removing this guarantee and expecting wages to increase rather than decrease.

There is also a big drive (as is always in neoliberal economies) to deregulate industries and businesses, allowing them to cut corners and disregard things like employee welfare and provisions. The Tories are pushing to deregulate many industries. They have severely curtailed workers rights and are going to remove our participation in the European Convention of Human Rights. Further warning signs that a removal of the social protections of the EU wouldn't lead to anything resembling higher wages, more freedoms, or better conditions for the majority.

 

There is an acceptance in Europe now, even among previous arch federalists, that there is no appetite for a Federal Europe.

I ga e read this whole article in The Sunday Times, but do not have access to the online version. If somebody else does, perhaps it can be seen in its entirety.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/even-if-britain-stays-its-game-over-for-the-federalists-nq88cjf98

 

Some good points. The problem though is that if we vote to leave the EU we'll immediately hand power to the Tory party who are hell bent on dismantling workers rights and promoting the business interests of large corporations. The EU has sought to protect workers rights and create equality across both private and public sector industries.

 

One thing I will say is that it is really, really scary how many people seem to be voting on probably the most important vote in the whole country for a generation, not on Facts but on Emotions and fear mongering on both sides.

It's also scary how many people still believe that we pay £350m a week to the EU and that the EU is undemocratic and may vote on these lies!

 

1. Warning of a "threat" is not the same as giving a very high probability that the "threat" will be made flesh.
2. I wouldn't base my opinions on the short-term knee jerk reactions of the markets.

I'm sure there were several "credible institutions" before/around 2007 warning of the fragility of the CDO
and its opaque nature. I don't remember the "markets" selling their CDO stakes en-masse on that basis ...

 

I don't know a single person who was swayed by the debate last night. As I posted earlier, that daft woman who asked one of the questions was still trotting out a Leave lie after the debate despite the fact it had been shown to be just that, a lie.

People have made their minds up and aren't interested in the detail, that goes for both sides.

 

I have spoken to people I still know in the City. The short term effects will not be pretty.
Sterling will drop 20-25%. Stock market will tank too.

This is a completely different situation. There isn't one respected observer who doesn't feel that the markets will react very badly to Brexit. This is more fact than opinion.

Just to add, as Stan says, most minds are made up so I'm not bothering anymore. I'd also agree with Priest that the number of brainless numbskulls voting will be a factor. Especially as Murdoch's favourite rag has got them all wound up!

To the leavers, go ahead and vote leave. Just hope you're ready for the consequences.

 

There is nobody who doesn't feel that the markets will not exhibit a negative short-term knee jerk reaction to a UK exit.
There is not one "respected observer" who can even offer a value for a time period that is deemed "short-term" .

The CDO debacle. China 2015. Others to come.
The markets exhibit a short-term knee jerk reaction. They always have, they always will.

 

The short term effects will be brutal. How long that lasts will depend on how long uncertainty lasts, and that could be for some time!...

 

The true "detail" in the main has been atrociously presented by both sides.
No surprise we are where we are.

 

And then, it could be for not too long. <QED>

 

I didn't watch the debates myself as I've been so turned off by the (mainly right wing) talking heads on both sides spouting rubbish, scare mongering and putting out propaganda and lies that I've mainly ignored them and sought out facts for myself. It does help that I work directly in an organisation that administers the billions of pounds that Wales receives every year and around 1,000-2,000 of my colleagues are on EU funded contracts (or part-funded).

But you've underlined my point, people have made up their minds already, but a lot seem to have made up their minds based on fear-mongering, scare tactics or just plain emotion.

I've even heard a few people say whether we vote to stay in or vote to leave won't make much difference to us at all. One thing we can be sure of is it'll make a huge difference!

 

So INNERS what now for you?

David Cameron said earlier that he would lobby for further changes to free movement rules in the light of European Court rulings if the UK votes to remain tomorrow, saying the process of EU reform will "continue on Friday".

But at a press conference today, EU Commission President Jean Claude Juncker said:

British voters have to know there will be no kind of any negotiation. We have concluded a deal with the prime minister. He got the maximum he could receive, and we gave the maximum we could give, so there will be no kind of renegotiation."

 

Change the referendum to two questions :

1. In/out based solely on Camerons' hubris ??
2. The proper in/out question.

 

He got what he did through negotiations, most agree it wasn't enough but we're part of a larger group and will at times continue to argue points and fight for anything we feel would benefit this country. We are fully aware of where we are as part of the EU and don't want it to change so your quote means nothing it's where we are now anyway and we don't want to leave the EU.

You though want to change everything and make a leap of faith and hope it turns out ok. Great plan.