But Churchill was referring to actual places and people whereas my hypothetical question was about a strange, fictional character from a far away land. Read it again and bow your head grandpops.
I'd like control of our borders but not at the cost attached to leaving. We do have a problem with immigration, I don't think many would disagree. We need to fight from within to get greater control though. The problem is the single market seems to be completely reliant on the freedom of movement. Its the one point on the leave campaign I can see. I would quite like an aussie type points system to be honest. I don't think we'll get it if we remain obviously. I'd also like that pressure to force companies to invest more in the people in their system currently - there is no doubt certain organisations don't do as much as they could because they can get cheaper labour from abroad. I just keep coming back to the lack of substance about how the leave side will action everything to mitigate the impact on the economy. They still haven't told me so I'm voting remain. I can't vote to leave on the basis of the immigration issue. Its just one issue in a very wide ranging debate. I personally think there are bigger issues.
Interesting that he used the word subjugate and not specifically conquered as if he had some precognition of what future generations would do
Why is being against migration Xenophobic or racist? I think that's a low blow, voting out doesnt make you racist. Having control of your borders doesnt make you racist. It's insulting that you feel that way. If we have a school that requires a head of languages teacher, then someone with the appropriate skill set should be able to come here if we do not have any candidates skilled enough to conduct the role. But currently we have people coming over and operating wheelie bins and coffee machines whilst lazy people sit on benefits. Thats not right I too am voting for my 4 year old daughter. Im voting out. I see migration as an issue (especially if we see the same levels as Sweden and Germany) I also believe if we do leave, it will ease the housing crisis. Rent prices will drop, house prices will drop. Normal people will once again be able to buy houses in London and the surrounding areas.
I'm not saying being against immigration makes you racist I'm saying the portrayal of immigrants in the media is xenophobic and also often racist and that people who are themselves xenophobic or racist will be voting out. It's like the difference between "all people who give birth are women" and "all women give birth".
Immigration is an issue. Immigration from the EU is less so. I don't believe there is any real suggestion that we are sinking uder waves of Germans, French etc. There are a few Poles but they seem like a hard working decent lot. The number of the remaining easter europeans are relatively small and again, not hugely troublesome. The great Turk invasion is nonsense. Turkey is at least 25 years away from membership. Illegal immigration, of course, won't stop - - we already have laws against it.
read your post again. the problem set out in it is not that people are operating wheelie bins and coffee machines, it's that lazy peope collect benefits. the one doesn't cause the other and if you think that leaving the EU wlll make London affordable you are fooling yourself
As regards lazy people sitting on benefits I agree entirely, I'm not convinced immigration causes that though. I think apathy and an unwarranted feeling of entitlement cause that and it's a cultural problem with the indigenous population of this country - you want people to raise their game rather than banning people who are better. "If a foreigner who grew up elsewhere and has little cultural understanding of the country, doesn't have formal qualifications and doesn't speak the language well took your job maybe you're ****" We have minimum wage so it's not like people are refusing slave labour here.
I find that a tad racist saying that all indigenous people have a feeling of entitlement and it's a cultural problem. Benefits should be cancelled or only paid to people prepared to do community service of some type. Cleaning areas, volunteering. If there are people that are jobless and want to find work, they should willingly commit to completing 20 hours of community service in order to receive their jobseekers allowance. Your soon find everyone wanting to find paid work. In the office I work, there's a fellow nufc supporter from albania responsible for the facility management, heads up all the cleaners, staff, receptionists. He is a Good guy, but we have been through tons of staff, very high rotation. I see him conduct interviews for replacements from all different cultures and home grown. Never does a british person get the job. the cleaners barely speak english. My partner though, very well educated (same school as countdown rachel riley) currently in employement, but wants out cannot find a job that hasnt had over 100 applicants. How can you stand out? how can you make a career move?
With a leave vote you're faced with the very likely outcome that the number of jobs available will fall as recession hits. Add to that the refusal in last night's debate of anyone in the leave campaign to make a commitment to reduce migration, and the picture is complete. The only reason that net migration is going to fall after a leave vote is when the British youth realise their labour market has properly dried up outside the common market, and start emigrating in droves to find work elsewhere.
We dont just leave though do we. I'm not sure why it hasnt been made clear to the millions of voters that a vote to leave doesnt mean we will be out the EU next week, or next year or maybe even the year after that. We will have a transitinal period, like a divorce as Cameron has previously described. Will it be amicable, probably not. But there will be plenty for us to offer as consumers to many of the european products, plus there will be other trade deals to set up around the world. Britain wont stop, politicians wont stop, nor will economocists, bankers, Dr's, business owners. collectively the country will continue to work and there will be people who specialise in doing whats best for this country financially (for me George obsorne is not one of those people) Anyone who thinks we will truly not capable of standing on our own two feet, really needs to have a look at themselves. The amount of businesses in London, the money that passes through out does any capital in europe.
I didn't say Britain would stop. I said it's likely there will be a recession, and I'd add that the recession will not necessarily wait until we've formally left the EU. Investment by foreign companies will fall through the floor as they look for other points of access to the common market, sterling will take a serious knock, and these are things in the next few months, not years down the line. The UK can stand on its own two feet, but life here will be significantly worse than it is now.
I think there are some flaws in your numbers. As numbers are the heart of your position, I'll chip in with my thoughts on them. You properly acknowledge that no-EU immigration will not change. You ndo seem to assume, though, that EU immigation will stop. I think this is incorrect. Somewhat fewer people fro the EU will immigrate but there will certainly be a signficant number who continue to qualify under whatever system is put in place. Even if EU immigration were halved (which would be a lot) total immigration remains at 75%. Does that avoid any of the problems ? Also, you assume that the UK infrastructure will collapse but that the UK will remain so attractive that people continue tom flock here in undiminshed numbers. That strikes me as suspect. If we become a basket case people will go elsewhere. It really doesn't seem like adequate justification for very real short term economic damage, a decade of an economy hampered by the need to negotiate trade deals followed by an economy that will ony be better if you beleive the things Farage says, which |I don't
The problem is though the leave campaign have not given any indication of how the exit would be managed. Yes there will be a transition over time. But it won't be indefinite. So really given the huge diplomatic undertaking it will require, I'd kinda like to know how it will be managed before I just blindly sign up to years of economic pain, on the flimsy basis we will somehow suddenly gain control of our borders amongst other issues (but this seems to be the main one for the leave campaign). The transition in terms of trade deals alone is a seriously massive undertaking. They estimated it took Canada 7 yrs to get their ducks anywhere near in a row. How long is the transition, how is it managed? How we do mitigate the economic pain? The problem with both arguments is the lack clear lines from both sides. So I just go back to the economic argument and the experts. 9/10 believe it will be painful. I can see for sure there is value in the leave argument. To sit there and say otherwise I think is a bit one dimensional in your thinking. For instance I do believe there is a problem with training and education in this country - and I do think cheap labour is part of the problem. Immigration is a problem and I also think more geographical than the other debates in many ways. The further south you go, the more immigration is seen as an issue in my experience. It doesn't really affect the North in the same way it does say Birmingham or London. I fully understand why people fear it might if we don't start controlling our borders. We have problems, I just don't think leaving the EU is the answer to those problems. Furthermore although there are barriers within the EU set up which certainly impact on our ability to solve problems, I do believe there is enough common ground between the EU members (certainly the bigger ones) to change and tweak that set up to find a better balance. It seems very hasty to me to jump ship. What you hint at above is true - the information fed to the public, these TV debates have not really helped. I laugh because the leave campaign want Cameron to nail his colours to the mast on Turkey re: vetoing their accession. He's never going to do it and that is why they ask him too. It was this kind faux theatre that spoilt the genuine debate to be had last night and previously. No sane PM is going to upset Turkey by saying if they ever try to join I'll veto. Strategically in terms of defence, the UK and US are not going to piss off Turkey. Indeed we'll do just the opposite and try to be seen to be helping them. The reality is though they know full well Turkey is a million miles away from joining so as far as they are concerned, its a non issue. We are capable of standing on our own two feet. That is not the question though is it? Its not whether we can, its whether we want to and will be better off to. And if we do and will, what is the plan to make it happen. We seem unsure whether we want to, we don't know if we'll be better off and those that do don't seem to have any plan of how we will.
Doctors are already leaving though. The number being trained is already not covering the numbers they need and the proportion who leave to go to other countries has steadily increased - there are shortages in a number of sectors like A&E, Paediatrics, etc. The "it's ok people wont leave" argument really doesn't stand up against the fact that well, they are. With teachers it's even worse - over 50% leave either the country or the profession in the first 2 years! My point isn't the referendum will fix that but it is that whenever we hear of cuts to public services or changes which affect these workers newspapers and politicians come out with bullish statements about how people wont leave and how it is a vocation and people who have trained for many years should be grateful to have a job, etc. The truth is that all those people with skills, they're exactly the kind of people who can and will leave - there's a plethora of doctors and teachers in Oz/ NZ from these shores and a fair chunk in the middle east as well. There's a limit to how much people can be shafted before they start to look elsewhere.
There is only one person in England that works more hours per week than me. You telling me you are that mug?
Don't vote remain don't vote remain I just don't think you understand I want to live here and drink warm beer in England's green and pleasant land
