Off Topic EU deabte. Which way are you voting ?

I'd agree with the part about scare tactics. What I have warned about isn't, unfortunately, scare tactics. It's what will happen!

I don't doubt that some well educated people are genuine Brexiters. They see the EU as a wasteful, overly bureaucratic organisation. And to some extent they're right. However, we will change nothing if we walk away.

However, the fact remains that far too many Brexiters are in it for all the wrong reasons. They don't really understand what they're voting for, or the consequences of voting to leave.

 

I agree with your comments around the EU being a wasteful, unbeuracratic organisation. I consider myself a euroscpetic and have been for many years. I have never understood why I am providing new roads in Portugal, unused airports in Spain, allowing for hairdressers to retire on full state pensions, in Greece (and the list goes on), whilst my own roads are full of pot holes, street lights are turned off at night to save money, we been arguing over the cost of a new runway at Gatwick or Heathrow, I am now having to work until I'm 67, to get a pension that I have contributed all my working life etc.etc.
In addition I have never felt like a European, as when it suits our own government don't want us fully integrated. As a result, the rest of Europe don't trust us and will quite happily stitch us up at every opportunity. For me personally if we are in Europe, we are in it "warts an all". The immigration debate is a sideshow as far as I am concerned, which shouldn't have a place in this campaign.

So back to today, I am still an undecided. I have read reports from well respected organisations and individuals from both sides. Whilst they pretty much all agree that there will be some immediate fall out from the financial markets, they cannot agree on how bad or for how long!
The main problem I have, is I think we are already in the ****. Osbornes austerity measures aren't working, the NHS is at breaking point, there's no guarantee that interests rates won't rise, Europe won't fall back into recession, our young are being "mortgaged up to the hilt" with education costs and pension provisions, house prices meaning some youngsters will never own a home, public services are being squeezed to the point, where the basics like road sweeping and refuge collection are being reduced to the bare minimum, road repairs are non existent, and the list goes on and on.
So if I vote remain, I am ultimately agreeing that this is the best on offer, more of the same, or it could get worse?
If I vote to leave, we could be worse off, we could remain the same (which is just as depressing) or we could actually be better off as a country?

So what do i do, I read and research as much as I can, to try to ensure that when I place my vote, I'm doing it with the best information available to me. And there lies the problem, I'm not yet convinced by either side and watching them roll out there mates to convince us, just makes me even more angry and confused.This vote has become more than an "in or out". Our leaders are using this as a political uprising. So many lies are being told, we the electorate are completely switched off and will now vote on a gut feeling. If it does all go tits up after the 23rd, the blame will squarely lie at the feet of the very people we trust to run the country, who in turn will be long gone to the security of well rewarded careers, offered by organisations which are advercating either "in or out" now. It will be interesting to see how quickly some of these politicians change there views when a nice 6 or 7 figure salary is on offer!!

 

This is appalling propaganda and it's very worrying for the future of the UK that people are buying into this nationalistic nonsense.

Churchill's words were a call to arms against the Nazis. Now they're being used/exploited/twisted to encourage people to kick foreigners out of Britain.

As has been pointed out on several occasions, Churchill was pro Europe and the battle in WWII was for freedom not to isolate the UK.

 

Good post mate and interesting to hear the logic from an intelligent undecided, who's still weighing up the pro's and cons.

Your comments about where we find ourselves today, in terms of our economy, pensions, house prices etc, particularly how this affects our youth moving forwards, aren't mirrored by the polls around how the under 25's feel about this issue. As the majority are in the remain camp according to the pollsters.

Personally I don't agree that we're currently in the ****, I think our recovery since the crash of '08 has been significantly better than our European peers and we're moving forwards as an economy.

A brexit vote would put us into a nose dive, how long this would last and how deep the recession would be is a matter of conjecture, but the fact that it WILL occur simply isn't.

So the stark choice is to continue on the road we are on or to put the economy into turmoil with the hope (but no promise or explanation as to how it'll happen) of a 'better' future at some point down the road.

What I would add to this is that when we re-negotiate our trade agreements with the EU, movement of people would almost certainly form part of it - like it has for Switzerland and Norway, so what the **** are we standing to gain by this exactly?

We're going to slam the door on a trade pact because of promise of a 'better tomorrow' that no-one can describe....it'd be sheer unadulterated madness to leave.

 

That's the worry, there is no plan beyond "trust us, it will all be fine when we're on our own."

What we will have is a government led by a PM and a Chancellor who wanted to stay in as well as an opposition who wanted to stay in. The Leavers won't have any actual power as Boris and Farage are simply talking heads.

 

fixed

 

Lighten up its a joke pic.

I have plenty more to post

 

I'm sure you do Custard but it's amazing how Churchill is being used by the Leavers and people are buying into the propaganda despite the fact he was pro Europe! Those people don't understand why and what they're voting for. They're sheep.

 

Totally agree, if anything is to sway me to remain then it's this type of crap and those behind it.

 

You make some good points, and I can see that many people feel the way you do. The problem is that too many of these people are automatically thinking that the grass must be greener on the other side, only to discover that it's really just frying pan and fire!

Whilst the figures show that we are one of the larger net contributors to the EU budget, in per capita terms and in terms of the size of our GDP, we are not.

Possibly this view from the CBI on the advantages of being in the EU might be interesting.

http://news.cbi.org.uk/reports/our-...t-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/

 

That's sums up my own feelings, great post.

 

Is that the same idiot who said 'Je ne regrete rien' after he'd made a complete bollock of trying to keep us in the ERM 20+ yrs ago?.....

 

Will they kick us out of the Ryder Cup?

 

that's made my mind up, in it is. Love to see the yanks getting a good whooping!!

 

Thats Labour votors for you.

 

Originally it was Yanks V UK, but the UK did not have enough quality players so invited euro players in. And its EUROPE v America not EU v America

 

John Major was PM he was the one who wanted to keep us in