Very worrying that people will get swept along with the rhetoric which has zero evidence to support it. I fear for the younger generation who already are going to have the hardest time for 50 plus years due to the actions of their elders. If we vote to leave we are likely to have several years of real austerity as the fan meets the proverbial you know what .
My feeling is that many people may be influenced here by their wish to shake the entire political establishment - not just the EU. As you say there is zero evidence, just short, easily repeatable slogans which are not based on reason, logic or real analysis. At the end of the day, whatever happens in the country, we will have a House of Commons in which 450 MPs are in favour of remain and just 150 for Brexit - how is such a constellation expected to negotiate the next couple of years. The Brexiters have no mandate to take over government - which will necessitate new elections - which will probably not deliver a majority for anyone. Europe would not be cooperative with us in the event of a Brexit decision - to be so would be to pave the way for others. If we think that we can rely on the good will of the rest of the World as compensation - then we should remember that (amongst World leaders) only Putin is actually in favour of Brexit. In contrast to the lies of the Brexiters we would have less sovereignty (because we would have to go cap in hand to regain the contacts we will have lost) - we may, of course, have less immigration because our economy would stagnate so much that nobody would want to come here.
You criticise the UK voting system when it suits you, preferring a PR type of system. Parliament has decided that important issues should be decided by referendums which is about as democratic as you can get. If the majority of voters decide for the UK to leave the EU then the government of the day is obliged to follow the will of the people and negotiate the best deal on leaving. I'm sure the French will be spiteful for a short while but the Germans will negotiate a sensible deal, they are desperate to continue to sell their goods to the UK.
A couple of quotes for you SH. 'At a time of uncertainty in World affairs, Europe gives us a far better chance of peace and security and if we wish our children to continue to enjoy the benefits of peace our best course of action is to stay in Europe `' Another from the same source: 'The anti marketeers would like to insulate ourselves from the rest of Europe and isolate ourselves from the remainder of the world' I'm sure you recognize the source of these quotes SH. none other than your darling Maggie herself - even she would have been against Brexit, because, although an ideologist - she was also a pragmatist.
Of course the EU was very different at the time of those quotes. Since then we have had the knowledge that there has been so much fiddling the accounts have never been signed off. We have seen the corrosive effect of a single currency decimate the lives of tens of millions of citizens including unemployment of 50% of the young. To quote the great lady she would have said, no, no, no.
You show a total misunderstanding of the German position SH. Firstly because British access to the free market would involve the cooperation of all 27 European states, and not just Germany. Secondly, although Britain is Germany's third most important export destination - turnover (export and imports, Britain ranks 5th) it is not irreplaceable. From Germany's top 12 export destinations 10 are European and so the survival of the EU. as a whole is paramount for Germany - if being lenient with Britain in any future trade deals means that other EU. states will be more inclined to jump ship, then they will draw back and either pay the extra tariffs for export, or will expand other markets (I suspect the latter). Sanctions against Russia also hurt the German economy, but they still did it. The main reasons why Germans want Britain to stay in the EU. are more emotional. They actually like the British ! They also remember that the EU. would never have come into existence without Britain's wartime role. In addition, many Germans also want Britain to remain in order to preserve the balance of power in Europe.
For the sake of sovereignty and control of our borders I am prepared to take some financial risk. This whole referendum thing has certainly damaged the business that I am involved with due to sterling's decline against the USD but I believe and hope it is the uncertainty that is causing the problem. There will undoubtably be setbacks but the UK cannot be part of a crooked and failing club which is heading in the wrong direction.
Maybe by the same logic we should all leave the 'crooked and failing club' which Westminster has become, all starting our own autonomous communities wherever we like ! Do you think that there is one political establishment in the EU. which has as little transparency as either the political elite of Britain or the financial sector of the city of London ? Do you think that the average Briton even knows that the City of London actually has it's own Mayor, own police and pays it's own taxes completely independently of the rest of the UK. Maybe you should be placing your own house in order before using the EU. as your scapegoat for everything you don't like. Maybe you can also tell me who are the biggest fiddlers of tax expenses in Brussels ? Probably you would refrain from answering that one because they are from Ukip.
I've just seen the results of your 'supposed' poll - which also showed that 15% were don't knows. I think that their maths must be as dodgy as their ideas ! 52+33+15 ?
So, you want to turn Britain into a failing, stagnating little island in order to have 'sovereignty' and control of borders (which Britain has anyway) - why don't you go to live in North Korea ? They have both of those things !
My visitor yesterday travels the world for an English company selling technical information systems. Their opinion was clear based on experience. Go to Europe and sales while not easy because of the nature of what is on offer, can when sold, quickly and easily be delivered, with a minimum of paperwork, no artificial trade restrictions, and a common understanding of what is being bought and sold, generating a quick return for the company. Go to the US and there is a different picture. The company can sell there under the EU banner because they will accept the EU rules and regulations have been well thought through and are thorough. Go there as a purely English company and a completely different set of rules apply. Endless paperwork to show compliance with US rules and what could be delivered straightaway, will actually take at least two years to get sold, if at all. Go to the far east and once again it is different. The big problem is copyright infringement. Demonstrate a system and before you know it something similar is on the market undercutting your product. The EU has powers to prevent the copied system appearing throughout Europe, but the UK outside the organisation would not get that backing. It doesn't take a lot of thought to see why this company would stop being an English one and relocate. SH says above that he hopes the pound might recover, and yes without any plan for how trade deals would work it can be little more than hope. Not a single person I have seen so far has been able to explain how losing our EU status would improve our dealing with the rest of the world. Be it the US, Australia or wherever you look, these countries wish to deal with the largest markets, not individual countries. Companies know where they are trading under the EU banner and don't really wish to move their base, but will if it means staying in business. So here you see the difference between a person who knows the way trade works, and SH who has little more than a vague feeling of hope.
The EU is remarkably similar to North Korea with its complete disregard of any opposing views, if the outcome of a referendum is not to their liking then the member country is ordered to vote again until the 'correct' result is obtained. Will they except Brexit?
Actually Frenchie, I think that you misunderstand SH. He is really Jeremy Corbyn in disguise. Because there is nobody who can drive people away from Brexit as effectively as SH. can. He's really our secret weapon.
May I suggest my experience of international trade dealing is greater than your contact who proposes to rig the referendum to suit the present failed status quo. He could always find a job in Brussels with that attitude. Being part of the EU the UK has to suffer unnecessary trade tariffs on medical devices coming from non EU countries, adding massive costs to a financially stretched sector. Our exports to the EU are in steep decline whilst non EU business is rising. The EU is a busted flush, the only thing it is good for is creating unemployment.
Maybe I am naive. I have not paid too much attention to the financial arguments either way because all the figures seem to be biased estimates/concoctions from whichever side you align with and you can choose what ever numbers support your own views. The Brexiteers seem to be saying that if we leave, we can have this export drive to generate more trade. Is it possible to stay in and still generate all this extra trade? I heard today that Angela Merkel is on her 9th visit to China to drum up exports. How many times have Dave, George or Jeremy been there looking for export trade and not just to finance our projects that we can't finance ourselves? Which is probably why we couldn't make much fuss about them dumping steel, because we need their money to finance a power station.
Really, what experience can you offer in exporting UK goods to the rest of the world? Where does rigging a referendum come into anything I said? What attitude makes them suitable for a job in Brussels? You haven't explained yourself very well again in saying what trade deals would be like, rather than another attack on the bits of the EU you do not like.
