A touch of Victoria Wood there, Stan, I like it. But it's a depressing sign that Remainians feel this country's prospects are shot unless it submits to the power of the growing Eurozone
Genuine question Goldie. The Brexit side have made much of the relative strength of the U.K. economy (I vaguely recall hearing somewhere that it is the fifth biggest in the whole world). Do you really attribute none of this apparent strength to our membership of the EU? Can't you find anything positive about it? I am increasingly bemused by this depiction of the U.K. as some kind of gimp, the plaything of the Europeans, powerless to resist, by the very people who keep telling me how vibrant, virile and thrusting we are.
The original EEC (the so called Common Market of "Old Europe" ie countries of broadly similar economic circumstances) was good for the UK, and for the other countries in the Common Market. Indeed if this current federal Europe project fails, I would love Europe to go back to that - a closely related but independent group of nations trading freely. I'm strongly in favour of trade with European nations, but I, like many European citizens - indeed, increasing numbers - don't like this project of an undemocratic United States of Europe which is the clear aim of heads of European countries particularly Germany. I don't believe free movement of people works when you have countries of hugely varying economic circumstances. I don't believe 1 million people net into the UK every 3 years is sustainable. We're one of the most densely populated countries in the world and the quality of life of the British people is important. Long after I've fallen off the perch, I still want the UK to be a green and pleasant land, and not one enormous suburb. Our parliamentary system that has lasted for 800 years or so is not perfect, but ultimately it is accountable, unlike Brussels. In Brussels, Ed Balls would still be in place and taking a fat salary and looking forward to an enormous pension. The UK is vibrant, virile and thrusting but look ahead, Stan. The EU is not standing still. Increasingly, it will interfere with our lives (and if we vote Remain on 23rd June, the EU will take us for granted thereafter because our bolt is shot). I fully respect our European cousins but I do not want this country run from Brussels and Berlin.
Goldie, the EU. of today is not markedly different from the EEC. of yesterday - other than the existence of the Eurozone and the addition of some East European countries. The idea of a federal states of Europe applies only to Eurozone countries and not outside of that - the idea being that a common currency cannot work without compatible fiscal policies, which is reasonable. The Schengen agreement has not really changed anything - it was incorporated into EU law in 1999, but I have been working in Germany quite freely since 1989. The principles of the EU. have always been free mobility of goods, capital and people. As for the country being run from Berlin, I'm sorry but this is playing on xenophobic sentiments (2 World wars...and all that) - Germany's only aspiration for influence is that it is the largest payer in to the EU. budget and should have some influence in where that money goes. In any case, are France and the UK. not capable of balancing German power ? 90% of Britain's laws are made in Westminster - and Britain can influence those others made in Brussels (because they also sit in Brussels helping to make those laws). Like SB. I am getting impatient at seeing Britain portrayed as a helpless victim, on the one hand, but being told how vibrant they are on the other.
The point I'm making on the Eurozone, Cologne, is that if 26 out of 28 members of the EU club, actually belong to a club within a club - the Eurozone - and make laws in the EU that are designed to suit the Eurozone, then the 2 countries outside the Eurozone (UK and Denmark) will be marginalised. This will begin to show big time in the next 10 years. However economically strong the UK is now ( at least compared with other EU countries) it will be led by the nose by a growing Eurozone. I've raised this many times, and no one has come close to persuading me this will not happen. As for being ruled by Berlin, it has nothing to do with xenophobia. I have huge respect for what Germany has achieved since 1945, and have been an admirer of Angela Merkel, although the open borders to the Mediterranean migrants was a mistake imo, and I'm watching carefully how she treats Greece, bearing in mind that twice in the C20th Germany was forgiven massive debts in order to get back to its feet. Germany is a large and powerful nation. It will control the Eurozone and pay for the privilege by subsidizing certain Eurozone countries. It will make the laws in the Eurozone, and thus the EU. France will follow Germany so long as its farmers keep enriching themselves from the CAP. After the pain of two world wars, it's understandable that these countries move as one. I notice you make no reference to high levels of immigration into the UK, which, if the UK votes out, will be the most influential factor.
Maybe you could read my previous post on immigration, Goldie. Leaving the EU. will not stop it. Also, it is 'pie in the sky' to believe that you will still have access to the European market without also allowing freedom of movement. Either you will have to renegotiate access under unfavourable conditions (7 of Britain's top export partners belong to the EU.) - or, you will have to replace those partners by trying to strengthen things like the north Atlantic alliance - which means you will get TTIP under even less favourable conditions. Thus, under the guise of trying to get more sovereignty, you will end up with less. Do people also understand that a 'leave' vote would ensure that you have no viable government left afterwards - do Gove and Bojo have the mandate to take over afterwards ? A leave vote would lead to a new election within a few months and, probably, also the break up of the UK. If I were Swiss, I would be voting to remain out - because they already have stricter environmental laws than the EU. (which other country would vote on an unconditional income for every citizen ?) - but my fear is that Britain, freed of all those nasty EU. environmental/workers rights laws would lurch even further to the right (the fracking island of Europe ?).
Just read your post on immigration. You say language, casual work and Commonwealth connections are the draws for immigrants into the UK, but you miss out the Living Wage which pays hugely more than someone in Romania for example would get. That is the massive draw. We can control numbers if there is not free movement. We are an island and if we have a government that is genuine in its attempts to get immigration down to the tens of thousands, it can be done. If there is a Brexit vote, then the people of the UK will have voted for that. As to Visas, I agree the EU cannot allow the UK to make a distinction between member countries. Personally, I think visas will be necessary. That is how the UK gets control. It's how the USA and Australia gets control. It will be a matter for negotiation between London and Brussels
Sorry Goldie....there are many other EU. countries which have a living wage, Germany, the Netherlands, Scandinavian countries, France etc. that is not the main magnet. With Visa's you have a problem - just how much money does London make per year from European tourism ? How important is the language as a money maker for Britain - how many thousands come regularly to attend language courses, propping up the economies of places like Brighton, Bournemouth etc. are you going to make them all have a Visa ?
He got Spain. The country with the largest influx of UK migrants, 1.8m. That's being complimentary. I would have used some more colourful language.
We'll have to agree to differ, Cologne, because believe me when the media ask East European fruit pickers why they come to the UK, they don't say - because we admire your Commonwealth. They talk about the pittance they would take home if they were still living in Bulgaria. Sure, there are other EU countries that attract migrants for the same reason, and yes, English language might mean more decide UK as opposed to Germany, but the minimum wage is the big pull. As to visas and students, we have a lot of Far Eastern and Chinese students here, and they presumably obtain visas. I don't see it's a big deal these days, especially if you can apply online. Does it put people off going to the USA. When did you last hear someone say, I'd like to travel up the West Coast for a holiday but the whole visa-thing puts me off!?
and.............house price inflation which means the locals can't buy houses for their kids. Health centre's which are totally overcrowded with Northern Europeans. The sort of things we are all experiencing with EU migrants. That is what free movement of people involves.
We've had this argument before. If wealthy Germans were bringing their money to Swansea, no one would be complaining. If we leave the EU, will Spain discourage UK pensioners from coming? I doubt it. They bring money for the local and national economy, and they'd only take it elsewhere for a sunny retirement If we leave the EU, will young Spaniards still come and live and work in the UK? Sure, if they're needed for our economy, possibly with a skill. They just won't be able to demand to come and live here as of right
I can assure you that the vast majority of Brits living in Spain are not wealthy. Just ask the Spanish what sort of class of people they are. You would get an entirely different answer to the picture you are painting about rich Germans in Swansea. If you leave the EU, I can assure you Spain would be the first country to say adios to the huge drain on their health service. If you leave the EU, I doubt young Spaniards would be allowed work in the UK anymore.
We're not talking class. We're talking pensioners that have sold their expensive houses in the UK and moved to cheaper areas in Spain, and spend all their time in restaurants and tapas bars. Do you have any grounds for saying Spain would want rid of these people? No disrespect intended to Spain, but most come back to the UK for important hospital treatment. Why do you doubt young Spaniards would be allowed to work in the UK if they have a necessary skill or there's a need for casual work here?
Countries signed up to the Schengen agreement cannot imprison illegal migrants for crossing borders once inside the passport-free zone, the European Court of Justice (ECJ) has ruled. http://news.sky.com/story/1708283/illegal-migrants-cant-be-jailed-court-rules
You are talking pensioners. I am talking about the whole UK population living in Spain. Most of the Brits living there have sold their houses in the UK and moved out to the sun. The vast majority of them work there in some capacity. They either work in the tourist industry or they work in bars and restaurants. A minority of Brits living in Spain are pensioners. The Spanish health service is absolutely brilliant. I have experience of using it. The only reason anybody would want to return to the UK for any sort of medical treatment is due to language difficulties. If you live there and you need a heart bypass for example, you would want it done back home as you will understand what the doctors are saying. Yes, Spain would want rid of these people if you vote to leave. The costs to Spain are far greater than what these people spend on tapas and fish and chips and half's of lager.. Spain would be the first country to say good riddance to the 1.8m Brits living on the Costas. I don't doubt young Spaniards would be able to work in the UK if they have a necessary skill. If you subject them to visa controls and work permits etc, they will be more inclined to go to other EU countries where this red tape is not a factor.
