I dont care for Gove, he's wrong on wanting the leave the EU, for his lies and you only have to ask any teacher's opinion in him for his "contribution" to education (this is also Cameron's policy of course). Who he supports is inconsequential, I wouldn't give him shight if he was at a game with his family because that's bad mannered. If only Alan Johnson was labour leader, he'd walk the next election.
That's his son sitting to his right. He was a mascot at one of our games two seasons ago. Derby at home I think?
Sorry, I thought the kid to his right was with the younger man to the kid's right. As an ex-Lower Loft resident, I still feel aggrieved that I can't sit there any more.
The thing with nearly all these politicians - Cameron, Gove, Corbyn, McDonnell, Osborne, Johnson etc etc - is that none of them have ever done what most of us would call a 'proper' job for any length of time - a mixed bag of journos, union officials (who have never actually done the job the union represents) short term PR men etc etc. I think this is a newish phenomenon, politicians who are professional politicians and are actually unqualified for just about anything other than sharing their opinions on things. Very little genuine knowledge or experience to share, and probably more ominously very cliquey shared experiences - particular types of school or university, the same issues based pressure groups. Very narrow perspectives. In my formative years all politicians, who now seem like giants compared to the current bunch, had the war in common, and many of them had played very honourable roles in it. I now think I was very lucky to have avoided actually experiencing the war but to grow up in a time when the sense of common purpose it engendered was still evident. Long gone now. On people who share their opinions professionally Hitchens P was on the radio just now. After getting off on the wrong foot by describing Muhammed Ali's life as 'bitter' - I think in reference to civil rights, perhaps 'a struggle' would have been a better choice of words - he piqued my interest by saying that the Aussie points based system is inappropriate for the UK because it is designed to attract immigrants. As he his (obviously) a Brexiter I think this deserves some attention, and I was have obviously not looked at the Aussie system closely enough. Then he spoilt it by saying that the referendum was solely about whether we wanted to be independent or not (at least he didn't mention 'destiny'). For him it might be, and for quite a lot of people, but for many others it's about the economy, immigration or other specific things. This 'one size fits all approach' to everything doesn't do us any favours.
Throwing a curve ball at you lot...let us pretend it is not all about us, hard though that is. (Even though I believe if we vote to leave ....it will trigger the break up of the union, as Scotland will force a new referendum, and breakaway from England/Wales, maybe resulting in a similar action in Northern Ireland...us Welsh, would take much longer to get our acts together) So what will happen to Europe if we leave, and does it matter to us (as we will not be there) There is evidence to show that our leaving will severely dent the stability of Europe and if the EU crumbles, the door to East will open. France has major problems, Greece may still leave/be forced out, the whole thing is being held together by Germany...and we may be the first domino to go..but it might be all it takes I am sure we will be delighting in our isolationism at that point...... but that will not be to reassuring to our children, who will be faced with an unstable continent on our doorsteps The crumbling of a world power, just like it happened when the USSR broke up. I am voting to stay in because, I truely believe it provides stability, where the consequences are really too bad to consider.
I think the chances of anyone who has had a 'proper' job representing any of the major parties at a high level are virtually nil these days. We are beginning to see a trend in the Labour Party of political 'dynasties' as sons/daughters of prominent politicians of the 80/90s 'parachuted' into safe seats. When I was Branch Officer at Unison in Southwark from 2002-12 I found many of the Regional Officers who 'sat' above the Branch Office level were young early 20s gradutes who had done a short time in Parliamentary Offices as 'researchers' and then been dropped into Union Regional Offices for 'experience' before being found a constituency to be nominated for. Many of these 'Officers' were not really interested in what was going on below them in the Region but far more interested in what was going on above them and where they could profit from networking. Having to try and get them to deal with disputes at local level were just not serious enough to warrant their time and many workers were badly let down by the Union looking after itself ahead of it's members. It's not just Unison, I was a GMB Officer for most of the 90s and quit because so many times being let down by Senior Officers covering their backs. A perfect example of how Unions are far more motivated by disputes with a political edge has been the Doctors dispute recently which it has now been revealed was manipulated beyond it's purpose. The Tories are no better with their set-up, so we are not as democratically represented as you may think and it's no surprise any party with a majority will never allow change to the system. Surely if the EU was to have any significance as a 'Superstate' it aims to be all countries should have the same proportional representation voting system...
Farage is doing his best to stir up that confusion. Today he has claimed that Cologne type attacks will happen in the UK if we don't leave. Those horrible attacks were committed, probably, by refugees, none of whom would gain entry to the UK under EU freedom of movement until they had been in Germany for at least 8 years to become citizens. Which of course they wouldn't if they had been convicted of crimes. To their credit Gove and a lady from the Brexit campaign distanced themselves from this **** immediately. But you may be right Finglas, if people are really prepared to believe this rubbish it might be better for all if we drifted off.
Your final sentence is rather contradictory, but I know what you meant. Thing is, voting to remain is just as much a leap in the dark as voting to leave. You certainly won't be voting for a status quo. Things will move quickly towards a federal Europe with the Eurozone at the heart of it and our vote to remain taken as support for all this, along with a President of the Super-state and a Europe army. Being out of the Eurozone will leave us isolated and powerless. We won't ever be able to negotiate a better EU. People thinking that we can by remaining are deluding themselves. Vote to stay and they will steam-roller us!! You don't know how the World will look next year, let alone in a few years' time. Anything could happen. It's all a leap in the dark. Let's go for it and be masters of our own destiny.
I had a difficult time in the pub today trying to argue the Remain case against four brexiters and one agnostic. 'What's the positive case for Remain?', I was asked, and I struggled a bit, finding myself waffling about the importance of international co-operation and 70 years of peace in Europe. The fact is there is nothing thrilling about the status quo. Change is scary, but could be exciting - more of the same is just that. I also found myself having to try to defend the democratic deficit of being in the EU, which is nigh on impossible. The EU is anti-democratic - I can't defend that. I remain a remainster, but a chastened one.
Don't think nations like the French or Irish really want to replace their presidents and prime ministers with one Federal super president Col. Would the Irish pass that in a referendum Finglas? Let's just say it does happen and they then decide to isolate and steam roller us, then the government of the day can just have us leave. None of us on here want that, or the pro-EU parties and if it was that or leave we'd just leave. But it won't happen, and if we vote remain the EU won't be throwing their weight around to us because they know we might piss off anyway with any rum deal
Why would anybody want to steam roller us? I just don't think it's 'us' v 'them' Col, unless we want it to be. The anti EU feeling in France and even more Germany is stronger than here. This federal project is in the minds of a few people in Brussels who have a tenuous grip on reality. The governments of the other 27 members have just the same diverse views to deal with as the UK government. I just don't believe they want to give up their identity in favour of a new federal Europe (not that it would bother me, set up right).The Eastern European countries have only had 25 years of real self governance and several have nationalist governments. They are not going to give that up. I am struggling to think of examples of politicians engineering themselves out of power. I will concede that the Euro is a powerful force to centralise, because it doesn't make any sense the way it is set up now. But why so pessimistic about our ability to influence things? But if you really feel it is 'us' v 'them' them we absolutely have to leave. I suspect that a lot of people do think that and am increasingly feeling that if we remain with this basically anti attitude it will end up worse than going, which will definitely be painful.
Very honest Strolls. You could of course have argued that this is our chance to be part of a superstate tied together by our cultural heritage which will dominate the world for 1,000 years! Oops......
Just think what may happen after the vote, a very narrow vote to remain. The Tory party tears itself apart and a vote of no confidence sees off Cameron as Tory leader. Boris takes over and after the Government lose a vote of no confidence Labour, against all odds, win a narrow overall majority on a manifesto of reckless public spending that will cause a massive run on the pound, a stock market crash and a major recession looms. The EU decides that they will intervene and run Britain from Brussels... It couldn't happen? Under new powers just agreed it very well could happen...
Germany will be at the centre of the Eurozone and we will be on the outside with little influence. Merkel has threatened us about voting to leave. She should check her history books to see how that one works out. The more the British get told to do something, along with threats, the more likely they are to stick two fingers up at you. The rest of the EU won't give a **** about us if we vote to stay and they will expect us to go along with their insane road to disaster. I like Europe and have nothing against people from other EU countries, I just want Great Britain to control her own destiny (put that in just for you!). That could well mean that Scotland have another vote and leave the union. If that happens, so be it. It's time to start writing a new page of our history. I'm actually starting to get the feeling that we may vote to leave!
I agree with the bit about voting to leave, beginning to feel very likely to me now. The rest of it...er, no.
What is really irritating me is all the this will happen and that will happen if we leave, how the hell can anyone know for certain?
Exactly. The funniest are the economists making out that they can predict what's going to happen. Hilarious!
For example, the company I work for supplies a lot of products to Holland and Germany, are they suddenly going to stop wanting them if we leave the EU?
