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Off Topic The Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Queens Park Rangers' started by Stroller, Jun 25, 2015.

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

Poll closed Jun 24, 2016.
  1. Stay in

    56 vote(s)
    47.9%
  2. Get out

    61 vote(s)
    52.1%
  1. finglasqpr

    finglasqpr Well-Known Member

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    I am sure you will get plenty of people in Pakistan and Zimbabwe that want to come also with desirable skills. Both of them have strong commonwealth roots.
     
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  2. GoldhawkRoad

    GoldhawkRoad Well-Known Member

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    The (mostly) pensioners from Britain take their wealth to Spain and spend. No real problem there, anymore than if a whole load of German pensioners decided to settle in Swansea. Good for the economy.

    But you're right about movement going the other way. The biggest immigrant swell into the UK at the moment is from Spain. And that leads to the inability of our government to meet immigration targets, and along with all the other immigration, is causing the well documented pressures on local resources, maternity, schools, doctor's surgeries etc
     
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  3. GoldhawkRoad

    GoldhawkRoad Well-Known Member

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    The UK has traditionally taken large numbers of Pakistan immigrants, and still does. I don't know about Zimbabwe, but of course historically we took a lot of Ugandan Asians.

    I'm sure those with desirable skills come in, but free movement is not appropriate for reasons given in my other post, and also because we are beginning to have problems with social cohesion is some sections of society particularly up north in places like Rotherham - the black commentator Trevor Phillips is particularly concerned about this. We need to integrate the Asian Muslims we have before taking large numbers more.
     
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  4. finglasqpr

    finglasqpr Well-Known Member

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    But Goldy, look at all this from Spain's point of view. The 1m pensioners that you quote - it's a myth that all the Brits living in Spain are pensioners - I know as I lived there. By the way, it is not just British people that live there. There are millions from all over Northern Europe. OK, they bring the equity from their UK/European homes to Spain and create house price inflation for the locals which means they can't afford to buy houses. Most of the older people living there choose to live there due to the climate and the benefits it has for their health. The Spanish health system is free to all Europeans with an e111 card. Quite a huge number suffer from chronic illness's and the climate is a big help. Where I lived in Spain, the local health centre was 80% full of Northern Europeans availing of the free health care system. Have these people from Northern Europe paid into the Spanish social security system? Not a single penny.

    From Spain's point of view, the EU works for them because what it costs them to be the free nursing home of all Northern Europeans, they get back from all their young people migrating to other parts of Europe to work. They go to the UK, Germany, Ireland, all over.

    Free movement is a two way thing. You scratch my back and I'll scratch your's. British people have been huge beneficiaries overall of the system. Yes we all know Romania and Bulgaria are miles behind other Western European countries when it comes to wealth but over time, their standards will rise. Look at Poland. Their economy has risen dramatically in the 12 years that they have been members.and I am sure there are plenty of British jobs that have been created due to exports from Britain to Poland.
     
    #3444
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  5. GoldhawkRoad

    GoldhawkRoad Well-Known Member

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    Without doing an economic study of the Spanish economy, Fing, it's difficult to evaluate the benefits of outsiders bringing money in to spend in an otherwise stagnant economy, and the cost to the Spanish healthcare system of treating their ailments. If I was choose problem countries when looking at freedom of movement, I wouldn't include "Old Europe" at all.

    But the expansion of the EU has brought its own problems, and though this may not be in the next 2 or 3 years, the accession of Turkey, Albania etc will exacerbate things still further. I'm not saying it's not a wonderful social experiment, or that there aren't political advantages in bringing new countries into the fold - but day to day in the UK, anyway, the huge scale of immigration is causing problems. And as I said in an earlier post, the graph of numbers of EU immigrants into the UK looks like the side of the Eiger.

    This big federal European experiment has got out of hand imho. It presently looks like the UK will vote Remain (although there still away to go) but even if it does, this issue won't go away. Turkey's such a hot topic, any mention in the UK of its accession from now on will bring huge political reverberations, yet Turkey will press and has big leverage with the African Migrant Crisis and Nato issues. Add to that the fact that as the Euro countries close rank, the UK will become marginalised, and you begin to see that a Remain result on 23rd June isn't the end of the story - it's the beginning.
     
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  6. finglasqpr

    finglasqpr Well-Known Member

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    Well Goldy, Spain is a classic example where British people benefit each and every day from the free movement of people within the EU. You don't need to carry out a detailed economic study to realise that.

    It has been pointed out to you by others that each country has the right to veto the entry of new countries. You keep referring to Turkey and it's 70m muslims. Yes, they are fighting tooth and nail for admission and licking the arse's of anybody who they think will help their admission. Germany will never agree to Turkey entering, neither will the UK, neither would Greece. Don't even go there with Cyprus. The EU is paying them 3 billion euros to be the buffer zone and to take back refugees. The EU just has to keep them on side until the war in Syria is over. As soon as that war is over, they lose a lot of the leverage they currently have.
     
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  7. GoldhawkRoad

    GoldhawkRoad Well-Known Member

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    On your argument on Spain, if the UK vote to leave, the Spanish will gladly seek repatriation of all those pesky British pensioners so that they can spend their money elsewhere. I doubt it. Even with healthcare costs, they stimulate the economy, and for serious treatment, many come back to the UK to be treated.

    Turkey - well, the Migrant crisis goes well beyond Syria. The migrants come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Pakistan, Libya...I could go on. Turkey is the gatekeeper. It has huge clout. Who would ever have thought that Turkish citizens would get visa free travel through Schengen, but they're on the cusp of that. In pragmatic politics, things change quickly. Anyway, Fing, if you're right, going forward, they'll be no panic here. If I'm right, there'll be a crisis over Turkey in the next 10 years
     
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  8. finglasqpr

    finglasqpr Well-Known Member

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    The Northern Europeans add to house price inflation as well as stimulate the economy in Spain meaning there are many disgruntled Spaniards who's children can't afford to buy a home - just like in London with the Chinese, Russian and Middle Eastern buyers.

    That doesn't affect our two islands as neither of us are part of Schengen. Don't worry about Turkey. The EU has them exactly where they want them to be. As for the emigrants from the other countries, it is up to all the countries in the EU to improve our immigration procedures to prevent illegal entry. Thank god our two islands are surrounded by sea.
     
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    Last edited: May 25, 2016
  9. QPR Oslo

    QPR Oslo Well-Known Member

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    Seems like many of you who want the UK to leave are losing your sense of humour as well as the arguments! Of course I realise that you all have brains, but when on all aspects of the discussion ratonal argument make a vote to remain a no brainer, I think many people who will vote to leave will do that for misplaced emotive reasons.
     
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    Last edited: May 27, 2016
  10. vblockiain

    vblockiain Member

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    I think you just exposed yourself as a perfect case for an intellect means test before giving out voting cards what a moron you must be i hope you feel comfortable inside what must be a very empty space between you ears
     
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  11. durbar2003

    durbar2003 Well-Known Member

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    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-36299682

    Thousands of Britons head for a new life in Australia every year, but it is often not the one-way trip they anticipated. Julian Lorkin looks at why UK migrants frequently decide the wide open spaces of Australia are not for them.

    The idea of a Sunday drive over the Sydney Harbour Bridge, past glorious harbour views to Bondi Beach, conjures up an idyllic lifestyle that looms large in the imagination of many British people.

    A total of 1.2 million UK citizens live in Australia - people like Jo Williams, who moved to Sydney from Sutton in London. But Jo is one of many Britons who find that stereotypical images of a relaxed lifestyle down under don't match up to reality.

    For instance, she knows that a drive to Bondi Beach on the weekend means battling Sydney's "horrendous" traffic.

    "Driving is my biggest Australian bugbear, on badly designed roads, along with spending a fortune for a café lunch," she says.

    It is also harder to find work than migrants expect. Even though Australia's unemployment rate sits at just 5.7%, low by OECD standards, Jo believes UK work experience and qualifications aren't sufficiently valued by Australian companies.
    "You'll often go backwards career-wise … the level of bureaucracy and difficulty in finding a job was shocking," she says.

    "Australia is an amazing country and advertised salaries are great, but daily living costs, housing and cars are vastly more expensive than in the UK."

    Boomerang Poms
    Although an increasing number of Australians are born overseas, proportionally fewer are British-born. The numbers have declined steadily for a decade, from 5.6% to 5.1% in 2015, partly because UK citizens are returning home.

    There are many British-born Australians - including previous prime ministers Tony Abbott and Julia Gillard - and emigrants often assume the countries will have a similar culture.

    But new arrivals in Australia "really notice the differences - and there are many", says Visiting Professor Roger Burrows at London's Goldsmiths College.

    He has studied the phenomenon of migrants abandoning Australia over the past decade and many cite similar reasons for leaving.

    "The lack of public transport means there isn't a culture of going for a drink after work," he says.

    "Commuters spend hours on the road and when you eventually get home you're in vast dormitory suburbs with poor-quality housing… watching terrible Australian TV.

    "It's very hard to make friends. Many never visit the beaches that attracted them in the first place.

    "They head back to the UK for a social life with a decent pub. Very long working hours are the final straw for many Brits."


    Australians generally acknowledge that long working hours are an issue. Five million of Australia's 7.7 million full-time workers put in more than 40 hours a week, prompting a think tank called the Australia Institute to designate 18 November as "Go Home on Time" day.

    But instead of just going home on time, more than 7,000 British people a year are going back to the UK for good, and nearly half on permanent migration visas return home within five years.

    It's a phenomenon documented since the days of "Ten Pound Poms" in the 1950s, when Australia's government offered cut-price ship fares to attract British workers.

    Many UK emigrants stayed just long enough to pay for their return trip, which led to the coining of another term - "Boomerang Poms".

    "Many emigrants find it hard to adjust, and compare positives and negatives," Prof Burrows says.

    "If you live somewhere tough in the UK, Australia seems great, but if you enjoy the culture and options to go out in the UK's big cities, Australia can seem very limited."

    Even the weather refuses to conform to the national stereotype. Sydney's yearly rainfall of 48 inches is nearly double London's 29 inches.

    "Migrants need to examine what they want. Australia isn't just a sunny beach," Prof Burrows says.

    "People expect their life to change after being brought up on a diet of Neighbours and Home and Away, but that's not a working day reality.

    "Even when it is as sunny as the TV shows present, many emigrants find it hard to get time off to enjoy it. Workers typically only take half their annual leave."

    Roy Morgan data shows that the average Australian rolls over 21 days of annual leave.
    There and back again
    Phoebe Baxter is a "ping-pong Pom". She immigrated to Australia and later returned to the UK. But after some years, she once again felt the lure of Sydney, and returned to live in the city's suburban Hills district.


    "I came back with my eyes wide open. You develop coping mechanisms, and the internet means you can keep in touch with family," she says.

    "I still miss the vast variety of UK high street shops though, and local pubs. Sydney's suburbs mostly have huge beer barns miles from anywhere."

    The complaints that originally drove Phoebe away from Australia are very similar to Jo's - work hours and transport.

    "In Australia I was shocked at the prices and hideous working hours," she says.

    "It had a good buzz, but the transport infrastructure is so weak. The UK has it down pat with the tubes and the trains."

    As a migrant she found insignificant differences assumed a huge importance.

    "Oddly, I suddenly appreciated the sheer variety of UK architecture. Australian buildings seemed so uniform and dreary.

    "Australia is great, with better opportunities for raising a family.

    "It is a blessing and a curse to love two countries, as I miss certain things of each country. However, I just can't commit to live in Australia for the rest of my life."

    Prof Burrows says migrants in both directions notice small differences, which become hugely important. "Australians also complain when they move to the UK - just about different things," he says.

    He warns migrants to think carefully about moving halfway around the world. "Be careful of what you wish for," he says. "You might just get it.
     
    #3451
  12. Sutfol

    Sutfol Well-Known Member

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    Incredible so many people have no idea which way to vote. Many people will make their decision at the very last second.
    When they say house prices will drop 18% I think that's a good thing. Even though I am a home owner the next generation are going to get totally screwed, a drop in house prices in my opinion would be a positive.
     
    #3452
  13. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

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    #3453
  14. sb_73

    sb_73 Well-Known Member

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    Bit slow in the trigger Brexiters, why aren't you on here giving it large about the immigration figures? Which do demonstrate one thing very clearly, that the government is unable to implement its own policy. No wonder Theresa 'fish mouth' May is being so quiet.

    Still more non EU long term migrants than EU ones. Remind me why we can't restrict those?
     
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  15. Chaz

    Chaz Well-Known Member

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    Major issue with so many of our public sector industries. It's part of the spiral that starts with people not taking personal responsibility for what they do or say, through ambulance chasers and no-win-no-fee shysters, via a culture of fear that embeds itself in politicians and senior public sector managers, to imposed targets driving everything that companies need to do. So we get hospitals that can't focus on tending to the sick and dying because they have to prove how well they are doing in responding to drunks who vomit in the waiting room on a Friday night. We get schools who are so caught up in teaching kids to pass exams, they forget that they are teaching kids, and so we get a generation that are stressed out about potential failure due to the messages the teachers are unwittingly passing on. We get police officers spending more time writing up reports than investigating crime and making the population safer. And the above shows that we put restrictions on released criminals and then refuse to enforce them, because the numbers won't look good.

    This whole 'target-driven' thing is twenty years old and is now so ingrained in our public sector, it's frightening.

    As an example, teachers should be able to teach kids the best possible way, that makes the kids want to learn and soak up knowledge like the sponges they are. Who cares if the percentage getting grades A* to C is 74% instead of 75%? The success of a student should be down to two things: The teacher giving the kids the opportunity to learn, and the kids taking that opportunity.
     
    #3455
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  16. vblockiain

    vblockiain Member

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    I am concerned i might be seen as racist if i comment on the thriving market of providing charitable work provision for anyone from EU who has the nouse to realise they can joins the EU migration gravy train towards the UK.This is an active EU reallocation of wealth activity aimed at weakening the strong in favour of the weak & enhancing their status with these migrants in EU. No i must not enter this comment i might be perceived as a racist Brexiter rather than one who believes our control of whole world movement into UK is beneficial as it brings English speaking people who have skills /Knowledge/attitudes profile to move our economy forward. Was that OK or should i just remain quietly in my corner :)
     
    #3456
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  17. sb_73

    sb_73 Well-Known Member

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    Is sarcasm actually an emotion?
     
    #3457
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  18. sb_73

    sb_73 Well-Known Member

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    The target driven thing is a core aspect of the obsession with the 'empowerment of the individual' which all political parties have been majoring in for more than twenty five years. It was meant to break the grip of bureaucracies and elites. See Adam Curtis' excellent and thought provoking series of documentaries The Trap, especially the first one "**** You, Buddy". It's just one part of how we have got to where we are today, driven at its root by the seeming success of Cold War game theory which managed to place a very narrow range on the understanding of 'self interest' and how humans interact with each other. It's really interesting stuff, whatever your political leaning.

    https://freedocumentaries.org/docum...-our-dream-of-freedom-f-k-you-buddy-episode-1
     
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    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  19. QPR Oslo

    QPR Oslo Well-Known Member

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    You are obviously a very pleasant, well-wishing person, with an extraordinarily subtle sense of humour, and blessed with a paranormal incite into people you don't know. Thanks so much for your comments, but please don't strain your enormous mental assets again on my account. And yes, this is sarcasm.
     
    #3459
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  20. vblockiain

    vblockiain Member

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    oh yes of course it is, its a protective barrier to either a feeling of strength or weakness & is part of flight or fight
     
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